Black Vault Show Aug 5 2007

[Brian Now]

Hey,

This was a good show. Not that others aren't, I just particularly liked this one. Not only is it inspiring that a site like Greenewald's exists, but also inspiring that someone so young thought to do the work to create something like this. And you don't have to buy a book or newsletter to see the collection!

David really got up on his soap box on this one too! haha.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I was surprised by Greenewald's attitude to the 'national security' question - makes you wonder if he has already taken stuff down...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I was surprised by Greenewald's attitude to the 'national security' question - makes you wonder if he has already taken stuff down...

I wondered about that, too. Perhaps he was just posturing in case the government was listening to him, or because he felt they might be.

Of course, I suppose one can say that he's all a part of the conspiracy, but that's probably as crazy as anything else. I'm more inclined to consider him a sincere person trying to present information in the best way he can.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I was surprised by Greenewald's attitude to the 'national security' question - makes you wonder if he has already taken stuff down...

I wondered about that, too. Perhaps he was just posturing in case the government was listening to him, or because he felt they might be.

I wouldn't blame him - if his options were 'take it down or fill a hole in the desert', I can understand him choosing the first option...which is a shame, 'cos it'll probably take someone going against the grain to blow the lid on this. But then, that's no consolation to the one who's making the sacrifice. Secrets *really are* easy to keep.

Of course, I suppose one can say that he's all a part of the conspiracy, but that's probably as crazy as anything else. I'm more inclined to consider him a sincere person trying to present information in the best way he can.

Well, if you think about it, he's being allowed to see *exactly* what they want him to see - so yeah, anyone making a FOIA request *is* part of the conspiracy, in a sense.

 

[Brian Now]

I was surprised by Greenewald's attitude to the 'national security' question - makes you wonder if he has already taken stuff down...

I was sort of surprised by that too. Also, I was a little surprised by the way he mentioned Sims. He didn't say a lot but I get the impression he holds him in higher regard than a lot of people on this forum.

 

[tommyball]

Great show. It was nice to hear what John Greenewald Jr. has been up to. I remember seeing him on the local LA news almost ten years ago, right around the time he was starting The Black Vault. It's nice to hear that he's manged to maintain the integrity and vision of his site through the years. One can go there knowing where and how the documents came to be placed on his site.

Maybe the day will come where an insider offers him some truly valuable documents and hopefully he will post them, but until then he offers a great resource, one that isn't tainted by the Serpos or Carets.

Oddly enough, today he made it on Yahoo's front page.

-todd.

 

[pixelsmith]

it is impossible to get on theblackvault right now. the yahoo front page must have drawn a lot of hits to his site.

 

[Mogwa]

Maybe the day will come where an insider offers him some truly valuable documents and hopefully he will post them, but until then he offers a great resource, one that isn't tainted by the Serpos or Carets.
-todd.

True "disclosure" is never going to occur during the lifetime of anyone old enough to read this, and faith in the appearance of a genuine "insider" ready to speak the truth isn't going to change anything. We've already been through this particular looking glass more times than I care to remember, and what we have found on the other side has always been lies and deception.
The Majestic documents were an AFOSI managed disinformation project. Even Stan Friedman, who was at one time was the most staunch defender of that shameful collection of nonsense, has rescinded his endorsement. Now he says only a few of the documents may be genuine. I suspect eventually, once he's convinced he's saved enough face, he'll recant even that mild assertion.

Phil Corso was a government spook. Deliberately misleading and attempting to hide the truth from others was his life's work. He maintained those professional activities on behalf of his superiors to the very end of his days. Any sixth grader with access to a library can disprove every claim he ever made about reverse engineering extraterrestrial technology.

Greer's disclosure efforts have led him to hop a ride aboard the happy Space Brothers train. We all know where that journey will take him. At least he won't be lonely when he reaches the final destination.

I'm convinced the ufo enigma can never be understood if we regard it as a single phenomenon rather than a collection of phenomena sharing some characteristics our physical perceptions tend to associate with one another when evaluating the data. But to regard them all as alien "spaceships" is a misleading, unfounded generalization.
Some of the odd things we witness in our skies might very well be nuts and bolts space craft piloted by extraterrestrials. Others may be strange living things based upon biological organizing principles we are ignorant of, or as yet unrecognized natural phenomena.
Maintaining a "prime directive" policy while exploring here seems reasonable if the motivations of the visitors is purely scientific curiosity, but what do we make of entities who deliberately park mile long ships over large cities in full view of the populace, buzz busy airports, chase airliners, and terrorize hundreds of thousands of innocent humans? What game are they playing? Whatever it is, a low profile longitudinal scientific study doesn't seem to be a part of it.
The situation only begins to make some kind of sense if you always bear that in mind.

 

[Paul Kimball]

The Majestic documents were an AFOSI managed disinformation project. Even Stan Friedman, who was at one time was the most staunch defender of that shameful collection of nonsense, has rescinded his endorsement. Now he says only a few of the documents may be genuine. I suspect eventually, once he's convinced he's saved enough face, he'll recant even that mild assertion.

This is a pretty broad assertion. It is suspected by some that the MJ-12 documents were a low-level AFOSI scam, at least initially, but no-one has been able to prove that yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm convinced they're fraudulent, but the culprit remains a mystery, with more than one potential culprit.

As for Stan, he's never back-tracked on his position about the MJ-12 docs. He has always maintained that the Truman-Forrestal Memo, the Eisenhower Briefing Document, and the Cutler-Twining Memo were legit. In recent years he has also accepted the SOM-101 manual as legit. He has always been leery of the other docs (the so-called "Cantwheel" documents), and has shown more than a fe to be fakes. But his core position - that the original docs were real, and that MJ-12 exists, remains the same.

Paul

 

[nycjeff]

I was surprised by Greenewald's attitude to the 'national security' question - makes you wonder if he has already taken stuff down...

I wonder if he'd be willing to do some sort of seeding project to distribute the archives elsewhere so that if they did tell/ask him to take something down, it could be available elsewhere.

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

Phil Corso was a government spook.

Couldn't he just have been a kook who enjoyed pretending to be important? Countless people lie every day - often extensively - about who they are and their supposed exploits. My guess is that Corso, Kaufmann, Glenn Dennis etc. all just wanted to be part of something bigger than themselves.

I'm suprised that so many people jump to the conclusion that all the hoaxes out there are being perpetrated by "government agents" as a form of disinformation. Along with that is the implied assumption that the government is doing it becuase they are desperate to hide "the real shocking proof"

But throughout history people have gone to great lengths to create intricate pranks and hoaxes for a variety of mundane reasons - money, fame, attention, proof of one's skills, the "thrill" of fooling people etc. Rather than blaming MJ12, Caret, Serpo etc. on some secret goverment conspiracy or "long term acclimation" program, I think it makes sense to resort to the simplest solutions first.

The one documented example I can think of where the government actually DID seem to use disinformation against a ufologist is the Benwitz case - but rather than concealing a super secret ufo base or whatever, the military's motives were simply to protect military programs. The fact that so many people are willing "true belivers" just makes their job easier.

 

[Mogwa]

My identification of Corso as an army intelligence agent can hardly be dismissed as "jumping to a conclusion." I suggest you do a bit of research on the man's professional credentials and service record, then see what reasonable evaluations you may draw from them when his claims are measured against well documented fact.

I'm disappointed Stan Friedman still endorses the MJ-12 scam as being legitimate. During one of his many radio interviews I'd heard him remark that not all of the MJ-12 documents should be considered authentic. That was as far as the conversation on the subject went before the host steered it in another direction. I interpreted that as evidence of a partial reversal of Stan's original adamant position, but if he still regards the initially released core data to be the real thing, then I was completely wrong.

I suppose identifying Mj-12 as an AFOSI disinformation operation can be described as "broad" in so far as it is conclusive, but I still think that is a reasonable hypothesis to draw from the available evidence, especially when Richard Doty's participation is factored into the mix.

( In fairness, I should mention that Corso deserves thanks and recognition for helping thousands of Jews trapped in Italy immigrate to Israel. It's too bad that he and the people he worked for didn't start similar programs six million people earlier. All the evidence suggests that the Germans would have been more than willing to co-operate with any scheme that would have rid them of us subhumans.)

 

[Paul Kimball]

My identification of Corso as an army intelligence agent can hardly be dismissed as "jumping to a conclusion." I suggest you do a bit of research on the man's professional credentials and service record, then see what reasonable evaluations you may draw from them when his claims are measured against well documented fact.

Umm... First, I never used the term "jumping to a conclusion". Second, I didn't reference Corso at all. Third, I'm a longtime critic of Corso and his defenders. Fourth, I'm well aware of the research, both pro and con, into Corso. None of it substantiates a definitive conclusion that he was operating as an army intel agent when he wrote his book. The most logical conclusion is that he did it for the money.

I'm disappointed Stan Friedman still endorses the MJ-12 scam as being legitimate. During one of his many radio interviews I'd heard him remark that not all of the MJ-12 documents should be considered authentic. That was as far as the conversation on the subject went before the host steered it in another direction. I interpreted that as evidence of a partial reversal of Stan's original adamant position, but if he still regards the initially released core data to be the real thing, then I was completely wrong.

He does, you were, but that's okay. If I had a buck for everytime I was wrong... heck, I even made a film once where I stated that the original MJ-12 documents were more likely real than fake.

Then I woke up.

I suppose identifying Mj-12 as an AFOSI disinformation operation can be described as "broad" in so far as it is conclusive, but I still think that is a reasonable hypothesis to draw from the available evidence, especially when Richard Doty's participation is factored into the mix.

Yes, it's quite possible that Doty was involved, buy that doesn't necessarily mean that it was an AFOSI-sanctioned operation. That was the point I was trying to make.

Paul

 

[Mogwa]

My identification of Corso as an army intelligence agent can hardly be dismissed as "jumping to a conclusion." I suggest you do a bit of research on the man's professional credentials and service record, then see what reasonable evaluations you may draw from them when his claims are measured against well documented fact.

Umm... First, I never used the term "jumping to a conclusion". Second, I didn't reference Corso at all. Third, I'm a longtime critic of Corso and his defenders. Fourth, I'm well aware of the research, both pro and con, into Corso. None of it substantiates a definitive conclusion that he was operating as an army intel agent when he wrote his book. The most logical conclusion is that he did it for the money.

I'm disappointed Stan Friedman still endorses the MJ-12 scam as being legitimate. During one of his many radio interviews I'd heard him remark that not all of the MJ-12 documents should be considered authentic. That was as far as the conversation on the subject went before the host steered it in another direction. I interpreted that as evidence of a partial reversal of Stan's original adamant position, but if he still regards the initially released core data to be the real thing, then I was completely wrong.

He does, you were, but that's okay. If I had a buck for everytime I was wrong... heck, I even made a film once where I stated that the original MJ-12 documents were more likely real than fake.

Then I woke up.

I suppose identifying Mj-12 as an AFOSI disinformation operation can be described as "broad" in so far as it is conclusive, but I still think that is a reasonable hypothesis to draw from the available evidence, especially when Richard Doty's participation is factored into the mix.

Yes, it's quite possible that Doty was involved, buy that doesn't necessarily mean that it was an AFOSI-sanctioned operation. That was the point I was trying to make.

Paul

Paul, the "jumping to a conclusion" quote was in response to DamnDirtyApe's post, not yours. I should have made that clearer by quoting his statement directly.

 

[tommyball]

Maybe the day will come where an insider offers him some truly valuable documents and hopefully he will post them, but until then he offers a great resource, one that isn't tainted by the Serpos or Carets.
-todd.

True "disclosure" is never going to occur during the lifetime of anyone old enough to read this, and faith in the appearance of a genuine "insider" ready to speak the truth isn't going to change anything. We've already been through this particular looking glass more times than I care to remember, and what we have found on the other side has always been lies and deception. ...

Mogwa-
You raised some good points and I agree that the prospect of a truly earth-shattering insider is unlikely. My statement was more wishful thinking inspired by Gene & David's hypothetical proposal to John Greenewald.

As far as MJ12, Roswell and Corso, I feel that those topics just continue to draw more and more attention from the phenomena (and I do agree with your assertion of phenomena versus one phenomenon). Roswell has become akin to the JFK assassination in my opinion. Documentaries and books continue to be produced and the event has achieved mythological status. Any new evidence is almost immediately countered from the other side with contradictory information. There are so many good UFO cases out there we (as a group of people with an intelligent and open-minded enthusiasm for the subject) need to somehow step away from those consuming topics that by now bring little benefit to the field.

-todd.

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

My identification of Corso as an army intelligence agent can hardly be dismissed as "jumping to a conclusion." I suggest you do a bit of research on the man's professional credentials and service record, then see what reasonable evaluations you may draw from them when his claims are measured against well documented fact.

What makes you think I am not aware of his record? Becuase I see the situation differently than you that automatically makes me less knowledgeable?

Is it not possible that someone could both work for the military AND want to make money/gain attention by writing a book full of fantastic claims? Or are you saying that one precludes the other? If you can point me to a document showing that Corso had orders to disinform the public in regards to UFOs then that would change my views on the matter.

 

[Paul Kimball]

As noted above, I don't know of any evidence that demonstrates that Corso was acting under orders, at the age of 80 (give or take) to disinform the public. There is, on the other hand, plenty of evidence that his claims were 100% bogus, and he was 100% full of it - at which point, any discussion of him or his claims is pretty much pointless.

 

[Mogwa]

Corso's motivations are certainly a matter of conjecture give the absence of a smoking gun, but we can make reasonable deductions by following the evidence we do have.
Corso was intelligent enough to realize that ufo books, no matter how spectacular the claims they make may be, are poor candidates for best seller status. That's why he believed another book he was writing on his exploits in the secret service during WWII was going to be his true cash cow, especially if his hopes of having it optioned for film production panned out.
It's also important to remember that the "disclosure" Corso purportedly made was in direct violation the secrecy oaths he swore. A career intelligence officer with his record would be highly unlikely to violate a sworn oath to his superiors, even if it meant turning a small profit on whatever advances a novice author might earn.
I think it is reasonable to assume that although Corso was probably motivated by money, his Day After Roswell project had the full approval of the necessary government authorities. He would never have proceeded without it. By agreeing to his scheme, the intelligence services tossed a bone to a loyal operative while further muddying the waters of legitimate ufo investigation. It was a win win scenario.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Corso's motivations are certainly a matter of conjecture give the absence of a smoking gun, but we can make reasonable deductions by following the evidence we do have.
Corso was intelligent enough to realize that ufo books, no matter how spectacular the claims they make may be, are poor candidates for best seller status. That's why he believed another book he was writing on his exploits in the secret service during WWII was going to be his true cash cow, especially if his hopes of having it optioned for film production panned out.
It's also important to remember that the "disclosure" Corso purportedly made was in direct violation the secrecy oaths he swore. A career intelligence officer with his record would be highly unlikely to violate a sworn oath to his superiors, even if it meant turning a small profit on whatever advances a novice author might earn.
I think it is reasonable to assume that although Corso was probably motivated by money, his Day After Roswell project had the full approval of the necessary government authorities. He would never have proceeded without it. By agreeing to his scheme, the intelligence services tossed a bone to a loyal operative while further muddying the waters of legitimate ufo investigation. It was a win win scenario.

You know, I've long been bothered by the Corso issue. First and foremost, here was a man with a stellar military record, so he wouldn't seem to have a motive to write a fictional account of his experiences during his golden years and pass them off as fact.

At the same time, there were surely questions that you could legitimately raise about "The Day After Roswell," but you could charitably blame that on the fact that several hands had worked on the manuscript before Bill Birnes got involved as co-author.

Corso was interviewed for the documentary, "Out of the Blue," and since we have one of that film's producers, James Fox, on tap for our August 19th episode, we did ask him to provide his own insights into his encounters with Corso. That's something you won't want to miss.

 

[BrandonD]

As noted above, I don't know of any evidence that demonstrates that Corso was acting under orders, at the age of 80 (give or take) to disinform the public. There is, on the other hand, plenty of evidence that his claims were 100% bogus, and he was 100% full of it - at which point, any discussion of him or his claims is pretty much pointless.

I've heard lots of conflicting opinions about this subject and I'd like to be better informed, could you clarify a bit?

I assume you're not claiming that 100% of his claims were 100% bogus. So exactly which claims were bogus? And where can I go to find the proof that supports this?