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Big crunch or rip?

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dusty

dusty

Skilled Investigator
So here's a kinda strange question,

For some weeks now I have been grappling with the thought of how and when if, (and it's a huge if the Big Crunch ideais correct) would we come to know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

I know about Red and Blue shifted light from distant objects and what that tells us, that's not where I'm going.
My focus has been on the question. If what we presently observe of the furthest objects tells us that the universe is not only expanding but actually accelerating, and also the fact that the light we observe is a snapshot of what was there some 13.5 billion years ago.
Therefore since that light left all that time ago the actual volume of the universe has continued to increase. Which has me wondering, if the Big Crunch idea were true, what then would be the effect on the flow of time? Most importantly what effects do you think sentient beings, (Yes that does include me sometimes) :) might experience?

Ultimately I think I am being all to human to want to believe more that the BC scenario is more likely than A Big Rip. Just sounds more like the rest of nature to me. Perhaps it might be the lifespan of Brahma, 311,040,000,000,000 solar years or (311.04) trillion years, but it feels more comforting somehow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

I have asked this question to a couple of friends and found it difficult to get across but these guys are special and they cut me a lot of slack with my strange ideas, and their responses have been helpful but this is still nagging me, and I thought I would ask for everyones thoughts as well as any guest who might have something to say.

Mark
 
the theory that gravity is NOT slowing down the expansion of the universe, but accelerating it, is hard to wrap my head around.

If gravity is causing the universe to move away from itself,that suggests a 'repellant' force, or else there is some almighty big force surrounding the universe and pulling on it from all sides.

That is about as much as I can fathom of either theory. A big rip, where nothing holds anything together anymore and it all comes apart seems to imply that gravity within our own galaxy is not enough to keep it together, yet we are clearly held in orbit around our Sun because of its gravity, and it is held in place because of gravity due to proximity to other objects in our galaxy, etc. Black holes become stronger the more objects they attract and increase their mass with, and it is speculated there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy. At some point, would that black hole not become strong enough to pull the entire Milky Way into itself, or just enough to hold it together?

And each black hole in the universe would eventually do the same, or perhaps even swallowing their neighbour until it all collapses into one huge singularity, spewing out the other side and creating another universe, who knows?

but I think the ripping apart theory really suggests that there is a great gravitational object surrounding us that is counteracting the gravity of the center and whatever black holes exist.

Unless the speed we were thrown originally is so great, the gravity is having a hard time keeping us together, but then the black holes should also be affected, becoming less cohesive.... argghh. soooo glad I didn't get into physics or astronomy. This makes my brain hurt. :D

Too bad I won't be around to see which wins out ;)
 
I have always liked Itzhak Bentov's theory of a Continuous Big Bang Universe which describes how the expanding universe gets to a point where it falls back on itself and gets recycled into a black hole which then expands out the other side (and repeat).

This explains a bit better http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...42&q=itzhak+bentov#docid=-9180163968161011744

It's a beautiful theory which also suggests that many things actually mirror this universal model such as seeds, eggs and even our circulatory systems. He was a brilliant man and sadly died in the US's biggest airline crash at O'Hare airport. He also came up with the holographic model of reality. Some may not buy into it but for me his theories all seem to fit. I'd recommend Stalking the Wild Pendulum

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0892812028/?tag=rockoids-20
 
I just had a wierd thought while at lunch...

What if the speed of light, which we hold at a constant, actually accelerated once free of trace amounts of gravity...if gravity from a black hole can prevent light from escaping, and the gravity of a star can bend light, perhaps the speed of light is influenced by it as well.

The implications would be that the light expansion at the edges of our universe would become more rapid, relative to the rest of the universe.
 
Xylo said:
I just had a wierd thought while at lunch...

What if the speed of light, which we hold at a constant, actually accelerated once free of trace amounts of gravity...if gravity from a black hole can prevent light from escaping, and the gravity of a star can bend light, perhaps the speed of light is influenced by it as well.

The implications would be that the light expansion at the edges of our universe would become more rapid, relative to the rest of the universe.
Click to expand...

Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep is also based on a similar idea: the speed of light being much higher in some parts of the universe, therefore making interstellar travel more practical/viable.
 
Thankyou KEROUAC and thefoundryman,

Absolutely awesome thankyou so much. I find this kind of stuff truly inspiring.
I must say I like Michio Kaku's ideas on our universe being like an enormous White Hole, just feels right somehow.

Mark
 
dusty said:
Hey Xylo and Stagger,

Could what you both say have some connection to quantum entanglement?

Mark
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with terms in quantum physics...I tend to get them mixed up quite frequently.:rolleyes: (too many drugs!)

But we do know that there are phenomena that act independently of the speed of light...I just read the wiki on quantum entanglement and even though that is interesting, that is not what I was referring to in my previous post.

What I am saying is that the speed Light waves/particles may be influenced by gravity, even in gravity fields too weak for us to measure, and that influence may "slow" the light to a "low value" of velocity, which remains constant in measure to us. However in the presence of lower fields of gravity, Light waves/particles may have a higher velocity...one that we cannot duplicate due to our presence in a galactic sized gravity field.
 
I'm not sure why we must have a beginning or an end to the universe. Perhaps it just always was... While it may be expanding or contracting to our own perception, one must conclude that our perceptions of time and space are in fact law and exists beyond our own perceptions at all. That being said, I actually wonder if we know that gravity is exactly what we think it is. Did they ever find actual evidence of gravity beyond equation? Remember the interesting data the gravitational wave detector GEO600 found when studying gravitational waves? The noise discovered was presumed by some to indicate possible proof of a holographic universe? I wonder what ever came of that....
 
dusty said:
Hey Xylo and Stagger,

Could what you both say have some connection to quantum entanglement?

Mark
Click to expand...

Hi Mark,

I wouldn't say they are directly related: quantum entanglement is pretty much a fact, while our musings about the speed of light are speculative at best ;). Additionally, entanglement seems to operate instantaneously, regardless of distance and speed of light, even when the particles are tetratrilllion (sounds more emphatic :)) light years apart. There is a catch though, since we don't have a good theory of quantum gravity, gravity could be related to many more things than we currently think.
In fact, Penrose and Hameroff believe that (if I can sum it up very roughly) quantum gravity holds the secret to consciousness, thought that's also speculative at the very best and maybe it's Penrose's consciousness that has gone off his rocker :D. Perhaps that's price for being so smart.
 
Thanks again Stagger,

You guys are obviously much better informed on these topics than I and I appreciate your thoughts. What you just posted about the instantaneous nature of entanglement is in some way related to why I posted my initial question.

The thing of it is, and this is where I start to sound really crazy. Over the last few months I have been experiencing more and more trivial synchronicities.
However the specificity of many of them has had me more than a little puzzled, I wont go into them now, as I think you probably already have enough ammo to blow me away :).

I am quite aware of the term Confirmation bias, (that and Meat Space are now faves btw David) but the damndest thing is the accuracy on some of these occasions. It has kinda got to me, and being one of those people with a very active imagination and an awful lot of time to think, probably way too deeply. I started to wonder, if when we sometimes experience synchronicities, deja vu, precognitive stuff you know the kind of thing. Could it possibly be that this type of event is caused by a change in the spacetime flow if you will, and although I think it highly unlikely, how would we know?

If what we are seeing today is nothing more than a snapshot of the past, and the final frontier being at least another thirteen and a half billion years away. Were it to be on it's way back, do you think that at some subatomic level of our actual concious being, it possible we might be getting glimpses of future events because of slow time reversal, a bit like a bouncing ball falling back to earth, and maybe as time passes start to accelerate?

Off to bed now, my head hurts,

Mark
 
dusty said:
The thing of it is, and this is where I start to sound really crazy. Over the last few months I have been experiencing more and more trivial synchronicities...
Click to expand...

Well, if you don't mind getting a bit out there, you may want to check out Anthony Peake's theory on the Daemon as far as abnormal synchronicity and deja vu go. He bases it loosely on Physics and there is some interesting thoughts there. I may not totally agree with him, but I think there is some value in his line of thinking.

His forum can be interesting and his website is here. He did a Red Ice interview a while back that outlines the theory of the Daemon.
 
aNorthernSoul said:
Well, if you don't mind getting a bit out there, you may want to check out Anthony Peake's theory on the Daemon as far as abnormal synchronicity and deja vu go. He bases it loosely on Physics and there is some interesting thoughts there. I may not totally agree with him, but I think there is some value in his line of thinking.

His forum can be interesting and his website is here. He did a Red Ice interview a while back that outlines the theory of the Daemon.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that aNorthernSoul,

Will check it out later, here's one for you,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Light_(novel)

Though this is a work of fiction it explores what you mentioned earlier about faster than light travel in a very entertaining and funny way I think everyone should read this. Dont know if the author has any interest in the paranormal I suspect he does, but I reckon he would make a fascinating guest.

Mark
 
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