Once again, we had lots of fun talking with George Wingfield. He always tells it like it is and he takes no prisoners.
Your comments are welcomed.
Your comments are welcomed.
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April 5, 2015 — George Wingfield
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
Sentry
Paranormal Adept
I thoroughly enjoyed hearing from George and getting to discuss his thoughts on things. He's got some very interesting ideas on the events on the Cash-Landrum case and how they fit into the larger scheme of things. I do have a couple of corrections on some case details, though. During the show, he talked about the memo from George Sarran about 100 helicopters, and I did a poor job of explaining why that's a misconception. This article does a better job of documenting it, see Cover-Up: 100 helicopters- Robert Grey airfield, came in, for effect
Also, there was a story of how the Government made, then retracted, an offer to pay for the medical expenses in exchange for their silence. This has appeared in at least one UFO book, but as best I can tell, has no basis in fact. I've found strong evidence that his is just one of many pieces of misinformation and rumors clouding the C-L case, see: Cash-Landrum UFO Case: Legal Rumors
One of the most interesting things to me in the show was hearing George detail how the UFO topic has become so cluttered as to be dominated with nonsense. Yet buried beneath it all, he still thinks there's something worth all the bother. Sobering thoughts, George, but that last part is encouraging.
Also, there was a story of how the Government made, then retracted, an offer to pay for the medical expenses in exchange for their silence. This has appeared in at least one UFO book, but as best I can tell, has no basis in fact. I've found strong evidence that his is just one of many pieces of misinformation and rumors clouding the C-L case, see: Cash-Landrum UFO Case: Legal Rumors
One of the most interesting things to me in the show was hearing George detail how the UFO topic has become so cluttered as to be dominated with nonsense. Yet buried beneath it all, he still thinks there's something worth all the bother. Sobering thoughts, George, but that last part is encouraging.
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George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
Having looked at Sentry’s findings on George Sarran’s memo about 100 helicopters at Robert Gray Army Airfield, I accept that this was not the smoking gun that it appeared to be. There is no reason to think that Sarran or Alexander was being untruthful in saying that the DAIG investigation, 18 months after the event, had failed in its quest to find whether any Army or USAF (or other military unit’s) helicopters were those seen by Betty Cash and the Landrums during the infamous incident.
However, there are very good reasons for thinking that the helicopters were real and were indeed ones belonging to the US military. This fact probably had to be covered up because this exercise required the very highest level of secrecy without which its whole purpose would have been lost. Only the helicopter crews and the senior officers who ordered the exercise would have had the slightest idea about its purpose.
To make any sense of the episode one cannot afford to ignore the grave international political situation that had consumed the attention of the United States, the President, and the US military for all of the year 1980. This was of course the Iran hostage crisis which blighted Jimmy Carter’s presidency and concentrated minds both in government and in the military to find some way of rescuing the 52 Americans who were eventually held for 444 days.
Operation Eagle Claw used eight RH-53 helicopters and several C-130s in an attempt to rescue the hostages on April 24, 1980. It failed miserably with the loss of several aircraft and the lives of eight servicemen. Subsequently the crisis deepened. A second rescue attempt, Operation Credible Sport, was planned using highly modified YMC-130H Hercules aircraft, one of which crashed during a demonstration flight at Eglin AFB on October 29, 1980. This project was abandoned shortly afterwards and it was on November 2, 1980, the Iranian parliament set forth formal conditions for the US hostages’ release. At just this time Ronald Reagan was elected President, although obviously he would not take up office until eleven weeks later.
I believe that one cannot understand the strange Cash-Landrum affair without first setting the scene. New urgent plans for the military to rescue the hostages in Iran were still being prepared as from October 1980 since few believed that the Iranians would keep their word on any agreements that had been reached. These new plans resulted in the formation of 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), the ‘Task Force 160’ that is referred to in John Alexander’s book UFOs –myths, conspiracies, and realities. The 160th and US Navy SEALs are most likely to have been the occupants of the helicopters involved in the Cash-Landrum incident.
There is known to have been a second projected rescue plan, known as Project Honey Badger, by the 160th to rescue the Iran hostages in early 1981. This was called off when President Reagan came into office and the hostages were released on January 20, 1981 However, it is known that the Honey Badger exercises continued until well after the 1980 US presidential election. “Numerous special operations, applications, and techniques were developed which became part of the emerging USSOCOM repertoire” --according to Wikipedia’s entry on Operation Eagle Claw. I suggest that Honey Badger was what produced the Cash-Landrum incident which had near fatal results for Betty Cash, Vicky Landrum, and her grandson Colby.
If that were the case, we need to explain what the flaming object was that descended on the country road near Huffman, TX. My suggestion is that it was some kind of “THW”. That is my unofficial acronym for “Trojan Horse Weapon” and something of this kind was going to be needed for the hostage rescue mission to have any chance of success.
Everyone is familiar with the story of the great wooden horse which the Greeks left outside the gates of Troy during the Trojan War (c. 1200 BC). The Trojans were very puzzled as to what this was but, thinking the Greek forces had sailed away, they took it inside the city anyway. Inside the horse Greek soldiers were hidden and in the dead of night they climbed out and opened the city gates for their returning comrades to rush in. This clever deception allowed the Greek army to destroy the city of Troy and bring the lengthy Trojan War to an end.
Any modern THW would have to be a totally unfamiliar object and one whose purpose was not obvious to the people it was intended to fool. Its objective would be to deceive, distract, and possibly even disable the enemy defenders at the position attacked. I don’t suggest that it was meant to look like a UFO but this THW would have to descend from the sky, land close to where the rescue operation was to take place, and completely distract the Iranians guarding the hostages. If it worked, the hostages could be rescued from the large building where they were being held in Tehran. Task Force 160 men would descend onto the roof of the building from helicopters and blast their way into where the hostages were being held.
It may have been planned as a similar sort of mission to the one which was sent into Abbottabad, Pakistan, in May 2011 to kill Osama bin Laden. That was an easier proposition in that there were no hostages to rescue and few armed defenders in the bin Laden compound. Even so, it involved several helicopters and staging points in the desert for refueling of the aircraft.
If the Cash-Landrum “UFO” was indeed a THW we can only guess at the role it was meant to play. It may have been, primarily, an experimental nuclear lighting device powered by a small reactor that could have weighed 10 tons or more. Output would have been used to produce an exceptionally intense light source (or sources) for, if need be, an hour or more. If it could be made to work as planned, it could have been flown into Tehran slung under a Chinook helicopter, and fired up when it was landed near the Teymour Bakhtiari mansion in Tehran where the hostages were being held as from November 1980. The device’s intensely brilliant light(s) would blind any Iranian guards or soldiers who tried to resist the rescue mission which would have been carried out by Navy SEALs wearing special goggles to shield their eyes from the intense beam.
A number of Task Force 160 helicopters could have carried out such an operation and taken the rescued hostages to a waiting US Navy ship out at sea. Such a THW –presumably unmanned—might have been intended to descend under its own power or else be lowered by cables from a Chinook helicopter high overhead. During the Cash-Landrum incident the mystery object was said to be belching flames downward but whether that was from a descent rocket engine or simply part of its fearsome THW display is unclear. It is most unlikely that any THW like this could fly the 400 miles between the Persian Gulf and Tehran under its own power and so it would have to be taken there inside a large aircraft --or else slung under a large helicopter-- before being deployed.
If this scenario is correct, the operation that resulted in the Cash-Landrum fiasco was a dress rehearsal for the hostage rescue mission, probably flown from a US Navy carrier in the Gulf of Mexico. The nuclear lighting device when fired up, intentionally or otherwise, presumably went out of control and had to be put down on a road in Texas with the resulting radiation burns to the two unfortunate women who were in the car that stopped near it.
If this operation was as I have suggested, it was most certainly Top Secret --to the very highest level of security. Whether or not such a Project Honey Badger rehearsal was sanctioned by President Carter in the last days of his presidency, we cannot tell. It may well have been solely authorized by some senior figure in the Pentagon. When it failed, all traces of the operation had to be concealed and it does seem quite likely that someone in the military may have promoted the wild idea that this was a UFO incident simply to prevent the real explanation becoming public knowledge.
This also raises the intriguing question of whether the “UFO” which landed in Rendlesham Forest and was approached by Jim Penniston and John Burroughs could have been a similar --or identical— Honey Badger THW being given a dress rehearsal test. This is pure speculation but it seems no less likely than an alien spacecraft landing by mistake in Rendlesham Forest at the very same time as the Cash-Landrum episode in Texas. If there ever was a US Trojan Horse Weapon being tested in December 1980, it never had to be used in anger since the Tehran embassy hostages were freed just three weeks later when President Reagan came into office.
However, there are very good reasons for thinking that the helicopters were real and were indeed ones belonging to the US military. This fact probably had to be covered up because this exercise required the very highest level of secrecy without which its whole purpose would have been lost. Only the helicopter crews and the senior officers who ordered the exercise would have had the slightest idea about its purpose.
To make any sense of the episode one cannot afford to ignore the grave international political situation that had consumed the attention of the United States, the President, and the US military for all of the year 1980. This was of course the Iran hostage crisis which blighted Jimmy Carter’s presidency and concentrated minds both in government and in the military to find some way of rescuing the 52 Americans who were eventually held for 444 days.
Operation Eagle Claw used eight RH-53 helicopters and several C-130s in an attempt to rescue the hostages on April 24, 1980. It failed miserably with the loss of several aircraft and the lives of eight servicemen. Subsequently the crisis deepened. A second rescue attempt, Operation Credible Sport, was planned using highly modified YMC-130H Hercules aircraft, one of which crashed during a demonstration flight at Eglin AFB on October 29, 1980. This project was abandoned shortly afterwards and it was on November 2, 1980, the Iranian parliament set forth formal conditions for the US hostages’ release. At just this time Ronald Reagan was elected President, although obviously he would not take up office until eleven weeks later.
I believe that one cannot understand the strange Cash-Landrum affair without first setting the scene. New urgent plans for the military to rescue the hostages in Iran were still being prepared as from October 1980 since few believed that the Iranians would keep their word on any agreements that had been reached. These new plans resulted in the formation of 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), the ‘Task Force 160’ that is referred to in John Alexander’s book UFOs –myths, conspiracies, and realities. The 160th and US Navy SEALs are most likely to have been the occupants of the helicopters involved in the Cash-Landrum incident.
There is known to have been a second projected rescue plan, known as Project Honey Badger, by the 160th to rescue the Iran hostages in early 1981. This was called off when President Reagan came into office and the hostages were released on January 20, 1981 However, it is known that the Honey Badger exercises continued until well after the 1980 US presidential election. “Numerous special operations, applications, and techniques were developed which became part of the emerging USSOCOM repertoire” --according to Wikipedia’s entry on Operation Eagle Claw. I suggest that Honey Badger was what produced the Cash-Landrum incident which had near fatal results for Betty Cash, Vicky Landrum, and her grandson Colby.
If that were the case, we need to explain what the flaming object was that descended on the country road near Huffman, TX. My suggestion is that it was some kind of “THW”. That is my unofficial acronym for “Trojan Horse Weapon” and something of this kind was going to be needed for the hostage rescue mission to have any chance of success.
Everyone is familiar with the story of the great wooden horse which the Greeks left outside the gates of Troy during the Trojan War (c. 1200 BC). The Trojans were very puzzled as to what this was but, thinking the Greek forces had sailed away, they took it inside the city anyway. Inside the horse Greek soldiers were hidden and in the dead of night they climbed out and opened the city gates for their returning comrades to rush in. This clever deception allowed the Greek army to destroy the city of Troy and bring the lengthy Trojan War to an end.
Any modern THW would have to be a totally unfamiliar object and one whose purpose was not obvious to the people it was intended to fool. Its objective would be to deceive, distract, and possibly even disable the enemy defenders at the position attacked. I don’t suggest that it was meant to look like a UFO but this THW would have to descend from the sky, land close to where the rescue operation was to take place, and completely distract the Iranians guarding the hostages. If it worked, the hostages could be rescued from the large building where they were being held in Tehran. Task Force 160 men would descend onto the roof of the building from helicopters and blast their way into where the hostages were being held.
It may have been planned as a similar sort of mission to the one which was sent into Abbottabad, Pakistan, in May 2011 to kill Osama bin Laden. That was an easier proposition in that there were no hostages to rescue and few armed defenders in the bin Laden compound. Even so, it involved several helicopters and staging points in the desert for refueling of the aircraft.
If the Cash-Landrum “UFO” was indeed a THW we can only guess at the role it was meant to play. It may have been, primarily, an experimental nuclear lighting device powered by a small reactor that could have weighed 10 tons or more. Output would have been used to produce an exceptionally intense light source (or sources) for, if need be, an hour or more. If it could be made to work as planned, it could have been flown into Tehran slung under a Chinook helicopter, and fired up when it was landed near the Teymour Bakhtiari mansion in Tehran where the hostages were being held as from November 1980. The device’s intensely brilliant light(s) would blind any Iranian guards or soldiers who tried to resist the rescue mission which would have been carried out by Navy SEALs wearing special goggles to shield their eyes from the intense beam.
A number of Task Force 160 helicopters could have carried out such an operation and taken the rescued hostages to a waiting US Navy ship out at sea. Such a THW –presumably unmanned—might have been intended to descend under its own power or else be lowered by cables from a Chinook helicopter high overhead. During the Cash-Landrum incident the mystery object was said to be belching flames downward but whether that was from a descent rocket engine or simply part of its fearsome THW display is unclear. It is most unlikely that any THW like this could fly the 400 miles between the Persian Gulf and Tehran under its own power and so it would have to be taken there inside a large aircraft --or else slung under a large helicopter-- before being deployed.
If this scenario is correct, the operation that resulted in the Cash-Landrum fiasco was a dress rehearsal for the hostage rescue mission, probably flown from a US Navy carrier in the Gulf of Mexico. The nuclear lighting device when fired up, intentionally or otherwise, presumably went out of control and had to be put down on a road in Texas with the resulting radiation burns to the two unfortunate women who were in the car that stopped near it.
If this operation was as I have suggested, it was most certainly Top Secret --to the very highest level of security. Whether or not such a Project Honey Badger rehearsal was sanctioned by President Carter in the last days of his presidency, we cannot tell. It may well have been solely authorized by some senior figure in the Pentagon. When it failed, all traces of the operation had to be concealed and it does seem quite likely that someone in the military may have promoted the wild idea that this was a UFO incident simply to prevent the real explanation becoming public knowledge.
This also raises the intriguing question of whether the “UFO” which landed in Rendlesham Forest and was approached by Jim Penniston and John Burroughs could have been a similar --or identical— Honey Badger THW being given a dress rehearsal test. This is pure speculation but it seems no less likely than an alien spacecraft landing by mistake in Rendlesham Forest at the very same time as the Cash-Landrum episode in Texas. If there ever was a US Trojan Horse Weapon being tested in December 1980, it never had to be used in anger since the Tehran embassy hostages were freed just three weeks later when President Reagan came into office.
Han
piscator ψ
Firstly I would like to say that I though that Curt Collins did an excellent job as Co-Host.
Secondly I wonder what Mr Wingfield thinks about the Roswell incident not being a "Mogul" Balloon but instead being a "weaponised" Balloon similar in concept to the Japanese FU-GO Balloon Bombs. Although to the modern mind a Balloon does not seem like a very scary weapon, imagine for a moment that in 1947 there was no possible counter measure, that could engage a Balloon at its maximum height, then imagine a Nuclear armed Balloon or even an "armada" of them. These Balloons could potentially have had radio controlled arming and firing systems and would be relatively cheap to produce. This is pure speculation but I know that there were several top secret "Balloon" programs we now know of like "mogul" and "Skyhook".
I would argue that the opposite is true, that is to say: I think that if you were trying to design a THW especially one you intended for use against "religious" hostage takers, making it appear like some form of "divine" event could potentially offer an effective distraction/diversion.
What I am trying to say is that for the rouse to be accepted by the intended target, it needs to fit into a target specific "cognitive framework*, the very reason that the Greeks chose the horse was because: the Trojans were renowned by them as Horse Breeders and the Trojans knew this. In short the THW appealed to the Trojan's only because they revered horses.
Trojan Horse software works on the same principal in that: it is contained within software or files that the intended target user values e.g. music or video by an artist they like, or by offering improved computer performance etc.
Small Pox blankets were the same thing, in that they offered warmth and comfort.
My belief is that familiarity is an essential part of any THW designers arsenal.
My understanding is that the the cash landstrum witnesses felt their "event" was "religious" in nature.
Hope this all makes sense, and I really enjoyed the show. Thank you. Harry
*I am having a hard time trying to explain what I mean in writing, not sure if this was the correct usage. what I am trying to get at is: it needs to fit into the targets reasoning and thinking, their mental index, beliefs or references, in order for the target to engage in the desired behaviour or action.
Secondly I wonder what Mr Wingfield thinks about the Roswell incident not being a "Mogul" Balloon but instead being a "weaponised" Balloon similar in concept to the Japanese FU-GO Balloon Bombs. Although to the modern mind a Balloon does not seem like a very scary weapon, imagine for a moment that in 1947 there was no possible counter measure, that could engage a Balloon at its maximum height, then imagine a Nuclear armed Balloon or even an "armada" of them. These Balloons could potentially have had radio controlled arming and firing systems and would be relatively cheap to produce. This is pure speculation but I know that there were several top secret "Balloon" programs we now know of like "mogul" and "Skyhook".
I would argue that the opposite is true, that is to say: I think that if you were trying to design a THW especially one you intended for use against "religious" hostage takers, making it appear like some form of "divine" event could potentially offer an effective distraction/diversion.
What I am trying to say is that for the rouse to be accepted by the intended target, it needs to fit into a target specific "cognitive framework*, the very reason that the Greeks chose the horse was because: the Trojans were renowned by them as Horse Breeders and the Trojans knew this. In short the THW appealed to the Trojan's only because they revered horses.
Trojan Horse software works on the same principal in that: it is contained within software or files that the intended target user values e.g. music or video by an artist they like, or by offering improved computer performance etc.
Small Pox blankets were the same thing, in that they offered warmth and comfort.
My belief is that familiarity is an essential part of any THW designers arsenal.
My understanding is that the the cash landstrum witnesses felt their "event" was "religious" in nature.
Hope this all makes sense, and I really enjoyed the show. Thank you. Harry
*I am having a hard time trying to explain what I mean in writing, not sure if this was the correct usage. what I am trying to get at is: it needs to fit into the targets reasoning and thinking, their mental index, beliefs or references, in order for the target to engage in the desired behaviour or action.
Wade
FeralNormal master
Yes I agree with Han, although George's theory is certainly plausible I think a more appropriate Trojan horse would have been another "crashed" jet or something similar the idea being the enemy would recognize it percieve it to be full of possible technology and/or intelligence value or at the very, very least, a PR coup where they could point out to the world "those damn Americans just won't give up". You would want to have something that would keep the Iranians distracted and go over with a fine tooth comb would you not?
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
George came across as a healthy skeptic. It was refreshing to hear a longtime participant challenge the supremacy of the ETH and acknowledge the limitations of this theory. He was credible and thoughtful on most points, especially the crop circle discussion.
At the end of the day the creating of art in the fields and hoaxing the UFO for no personal financial gain speaks to the socially disuptive artist. Others who may have strong beliefs about crop circles may take offense, but the the Catholic church takes a lot of offense at what Monty Python has to say about them and how every sperm is sacred. For the crop circle artist the goal is to challenge beliefs, make fun and shift the landscape.
Are these the same motivations of Doty who continues to reappear in paranrmal conversation? Is he trickster, bastard, under control or simply a mischievous elf whose sole goal is to disrupt and confuse for the sake of promoting chaos? A show detailing his specific roles in paranormal and UFO circles is long overdue as he has spun so many tales and altered many a mind.
But to be honest, the real star of these past two shows has been Curt Collins. Sentry, you have a journalist's flare and focus. Your knowledge of the field is excellent and you offer a lot of extras as a co-host substitute in tone and ability to direct the discussion. Listening to you has been very interesting as you straight man your stingers and open up the conversation with your own informed commentary. It's too bad Chris was not there to take on the mutilation part of the conversation, but you've been a solid stand in allowing for Chris to tend to other business. You demonstrate the great depth that's in the Paracast community. Well done!
At the end of the day the creating of art in the fields and hoaxing the UFO for no personal financial gain speaks to the socially disuptive artist. Others who may have strong beliefs about crop circles may take offense, but the the Catholic church takes a lot of offense at what Monty Python has to say about them and how every sperm is sacred. For the crop circle artist the goal is to challenge beliefs, make fun and shift the landscape.
Are these the same motivations of Doty who continues to reappear in paranrmal conversation? Is he trickster, bastard, under control or simply a mischievous elf whose sole goal is to disrupt and confuse for the sake of promoting chaos? A show detailing his specific roles in paranormal and UFO circles is long overdue as he has spun so many tales and altered many a mind.
But to be honest, the real star of these past two shows has been Curt Collins. Sentry, you have a journalist's flare and focus. Your knowledge of the field is excellent and you offer a lot of extras as a co-host substitute in tone and ability to direct the discussion. Listening to you has been very interesting as you straight man your stingers and open up the conversation with your own informed commentary. It's too bad Chris was not there to take on the mutilation part of the conversation, but you've been a solid stand in allowing for Chris to tend to other business. You demonstrate the great depth that's in the Paracast community. Well done!
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
Let me first address what Han said about Fugo balloons and Roswell. The Fugo balloons were launched towards the United States by the Japanese in the final two years of World War II. Some of these could certainly have reached New Mexico but if the debris which was found at Mac Brazel's ranch in July 1947 was a fugo balloon it must have been lying there for at least two years and surely Brazel would have found it much earlier.
From all I read about the debris recovered from the Brazel ranch in 1947 it never sounded as if some interstellar spaceship had crashed there. There was very little mention of anything made of metal and nothing like a solid metal fuselage that one might expect even with a terrestrial airplane. The debris consisted mostly of polythene, tinfoil, rubber, paper, balsa wood sticks and mylar-like materials which might be used in construction of balloons and associated equipment. The official suggestion put out by General Ramey that this was a small standard weather balloon and reflector was clearly untrue in view of the sheer amount of debris and clearly that had to be a cover-up. So what was it?
Starting in 1980 various books were published claiming that the official government cover-up was because the crashed object was really an (alien) flying saucer --as Major Jesse Marcel from Roswell Army Air Field who went out to look at the crash site had first suggested. This claim became one of the central tenets of modern UFO belief and part of the creed of what amounted to a new religion. It wasn't long before UFO believers were being told that the aliens are here, abducting huge numbers of people, working in secret underground bases, mutilating cattle for obscure purposes, and possibly preparing to invade this planet.
There was any amount of this and claims of other saucer crashes, small alien bodies, captured aliens, alien autopsies, aliens at Area 51 and more. All of it, I believe, belongs firmly in the 7F basket of ufology (fiction, fantasy, fraud, forgery, false memory, folklore and flapdoodle).
The object that crashed at the Brazel Ranch in 1947 was almost certainly a Project Mogul balloon which was part of a Top Secret government program to monitor seismic effects and fallout from Soviet nuclear testing. One of the scientists involved in that program was Charles B Moore who wrote a book about the Roswell crash and the myth that had developed out of it. Moore recognized descriptions of adhesive tape "bearing alien symbols" which was found at the Brazel ranch crash site as being a patterned tape which the Mogul team had used to hold together various components of the Mogul balloon trains which sometimes consisted of 20 to 30 balloons strung together (not by tape!) and perhaps 200 feet long.
Curiously enough Moore and his Mogul team had a remarkable UFO sighting in New Mexico in 1949 and he wasn't a complete UFO skeptic. For details of this and his work with Project Mogul see the Wikipedia entry for "Charles B Moore". The unidentified object he described as a "craft" of some sort and quite definitely not any balloon. I think we should listen to what Moore said about the Roswell crash rather than Major Jesse Marcel and the authors of all those other books on Roswell!
From all I read about the debris recovered from the Brazel ranch in 1947 it never sounded as if some interstellar spaceship had crashed there. There was very little mention of anything made of metal and nothing like a solid metal fuselage that one might expect even with a terrestrial airplane. The debris consisted mostly of polythene, tinfoil, rubber, paper, balsa wood sticks and mylar-like materials which might be used in construction of balloons and associated equipment. The official suggestion put out by General Ramey that this was a small standard weather balloon and reflector was clearly untrue in view of the sheer amount of debris and clearly that had to be a cover-up. So what was it?
Starting in 1980 various books were published claiming that the official government cover-up was because the crashed object was really an (alien) flying saucer --as Major Jesse Marcel from Roswell Army Air Field who went out to look at the crash site had first suggested. This claim became one of the central tenets of modern UFO belief and part of the creed of what amounted to a new religion. It wasn't long before UFO believers were being told that the aliens are here, abducting huge numbers of people, working in secret underground bases, mutilating cattle for obscure purposes, and possibly preparing to invade this planet.
There was any amount of this and claims of other saucer crashes, small alien bodies, captured aliens, alien autopsies, aliens at Area 51 and more. All of it, I believe, belongs firmly in the 7F basket of ufology (fiction, fantasy, fraud, forgery, false memory, folklore and flapdoodle).
The object that crashed at the Brazel Ranch in 1947 was almost certainly a Project Mogul balloon which was part of a Top Secret government program to monitor seismic effects and fallout from Soviet nuclear testing. One of the scientists involved in that program was Charles B Moore who wrote a book about the Roswell crash and the myth that had developed out of it. Moore recognized descriptions of adhesive tape "bearing alien symbols" which was found at the Brazel ranch crash site as being a patterned tape which the Mogul team had used to hold together various components of the Mogul balloon trains which sometimes consisted of 20 to 30 balloons strung together (not by tape!) and perhaps 200 feet long.
Curiously enough Moore and his Mogul team had a remarkable UFO sighting in New Mexico in 1949 and he wasn't a complete UFO skeptic. For details of this and his work with Project Mogul see the Wikipedia entry for "Charles B Moore". The unidentified object he described as a "craft" of some sort and quite definitely not any balloon. I think we should listen to what Moore said about the Roswell crash rather than Major Jesse Marcel and the authors of all those other books on Roswell!
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
On the subject of Fugo balloons being fearsome weapons, as suggested by Han, that's certainly true and especially if they carried nuclear bombs. However the balloons were carried on the winds at high altitude and there was absolutely no way of knowing where they would end up. The Japanese did not have nuclear weapons in 1945 so this was never a possibility --quite apart from the fact that even the smallest nuclear bombs then were far heavier than what a Fugo ballon could carry.
The Soviets were well aware that nuclear weapons of mass destruction had to be carefull targeted and so they --like the Americans-- poured huge resources into developing long range bombers and ICBMs. That was for the whole duration of the Cold War. My suggestion of THWs is a very different matter altogether and any such weapon needs to be carefully devised for a very specific purpose and to produce a particular response from its intended victims. If the mysterious Cash-Landrum object was indeed a THW developed for Project Honey Badger, then Betty Cash and the Landrums were clearly not intended to be its victims.
If the UFO which came down in Rendlesham Forest in December 1980 was really a similar THW developed for Project Honey Badger, one has to ask whether it was being deliberately tested on the unwitting USAF security guards at the Bentwaters/Woodbridge Air Force base close to which it was found. If such a scenario is a possibility it would appear that no one --not even Deputy Base Commander Charles Halt-- was told in advance, or afterwards, of such an exercise.
The Soviets were well aware that nuclear weapons of mass destruction had to be carefull targeted and so they --like the Americans-- poured huge resources into developing long range bombers and ICBMs. That was for the whole duration of the Cold War. My suggestion of THWs is a very different matter altogether and any such weapon needs to be carefully devised for a very specific purpose and to produce a particular response from its intended victims. If the mysterious Cash-Landrum object was indeed a THW developed for Project Honey Badger, then Betty Cash and the Landrums were clearly not intended to be its victims.
If the UFO which came down in Rendlesham Forest in December 1980 was really a similar THW developed for Project Honey Badger, one has to ask whether it was being deliberately tested on the unwitting USAF security guards at the Bentwaters/Woodbridge Air Force base close to which it was found. If such a scenario is a possibility it would appear that no one --not even Deputy Base Commander Charles Halt-- was told in advance, or afterwards, of such an exercise.
Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Regarding the locals claims of a large military presence in and around the crash site. Would such an operation, as described, be necessary for a crashed Mogul recovery? What of the claim of bodies in the wreckage? Was the 1997 Air Force quote of "crash test dummies" just some official having some fun with the 50th anniversary excitement?
Han
piscator ψ
RE Alien bodies recovered, my understanding is that there was no mention of any "bodies" Alien or otherwise until decades after the "crash", However from the description of the alleged bodies I would say if there were any at all, they seem to fit the description of Primates, most likely Chimps or Bonobo, who were the unfortunate victims of some kind of high altitude testing, possibly using a balloon/s and "pressure" suits.
RE: FU-GO's
There is something about the timing of the Roswell incident, it is at least 5 years before the first U2 Flew and at least 7 years before the First ICBM (excluding the German tests of the Projekt Amerika A9/A10 ICBM because they did not have a Nuclear Bomb).
It is important to note that in order for the American B-29s to deploy their Nuclear bombs, Saipan, Tinian and Guam had to be captured first. In other words it was not possible to fly fully loaded from America to Japan directly.
In 1947 although the B-50 had been Developed it still only had a range of about 2500 (two thousand five hundred) Miles (combat/loaded range) and the distance between New York and Moscow is about 4500 (four and a half thousand) miles. In short they could not directly strike each other using contemporary bombers.
My suggestion is of a FU-GO inspired balloon that could have potentially been a "stopgap" whilst ICBMs and longer range higher flying Bombers were being developed.
The above is a naive attempt to illustrate the potential of a balloon weapons platform.
1. The Canopy, I am no expert on balloon configuration, but my understanding is that the amount of weight a Balloon/s can lift is only limited by the size and capacity of said Balloon/s. I believe that a scaled down Warhead could be feasibly carried by a Balloon.
2. By 1947 Radio control was already quite advanced, and although technically "fly by wire" and of limited success "Operation Aphrodite" demonstrates the "outside of the box" thinking that was prevalent in this era.
3. It would be too dangerous to risk sending an armed warhead aloft with a Balloon so the ability to arm and fire remotely would be essential, and could be achieved using R/C.
4. Scaling down the Bomb would mean it required less lift to be carried up, resulting in a smaller Balloon/s.
I feel that it important to address the issue of "aiming" such a device/s. I fully understand that winds are unpredictable and can result in Balloons being blown off course, however if you were to send a multitude at once from different locations, a percentage would make the target area. It is important to note that radio triangulation had been used by the RAF for precision bombing (Mosquito) code name "OBOE" and this could realistically be used to track the balloon/s position, and arm and fire once in the target area, also if the bomb was detonated at altitude the fallout would be spread over a huge area.
The device I have depicted is very basic, however the scientists captured during operation paperclip would have been familiar with "zeppelin"/Balloon technology given that Zeppelins were used by the Germans in WWI and their psychological effect had been well documented, they also had experience aiming "dumb" rockets like the V1 which was essentially just a flying bomb that fell from the sky when its fuel ran out, part of the terror factor of this weapon was its random nature.
Several FU-GO's had been recovered by the US but given that Japan was part of the axis, I wonder if they had already shared this knowledge with the captured German Scientists?
I am convinced that it was something more than a "listening device" because of the miss handled cover-up which I feel was in part intended to "worry" the Russians. That is to say I believe that the intention was to convince Russia that the US was in possession of a weapon that could not be countered with "conventional" technology i.e Anti Aircraft Guns or Interceptor/Fighters. SAMs that could reach the altitude of a balloon did not appear until the 1950s (Project Nike).
I should also mention that the US already had done a lot of research into balloons and that in 1935 the manned Balloon "Explorer II" reached an altitude of 22.066 km (72,400 ft) well beyond the range of any counter measure until the 1950s.
Apologies for any spelling or terminology mistakes.
RE the THW: I think that your theory is the most likely explanation for the Cash Landrum incident, I was trying to highlight what I think many people have ignored or even assigned to the witnesses "religious" interpretation of the event. What I am trying to say is that: it is very hard to convince hostage takers to put down their weapons or release their victims using "force" however if the said hostage takers were "devout" and God commanded them do it, they would be more likely to do so.
All you have to do is convince them that your THW is God or his representative
RE: FU-GO's
There is something about the timing of the Roswell incident, it is at least 5 years before the first U2 Flew and at least 7 years before the First ICBM (excluding the German tests of the Projekt Amerika A9/A10 ICBM because they did not have a Nuclear Bomb).
It is important to note that in order for the American B-29s to deploy their Nuclear bombs, Saipan, Tinian and Guam had to be captured first. In other words it was not possible to fly fully loaded from America to Japan directly.
In 1947 although the B-50 had been Developed it still only had a range of about 2500 (two thousand five hundred) Miles (combat/loaded range) and the distance between New York and Moscow is about 4500 (four and a half thousand) miles. In short they could not directly strike each other using contemporary bombers.
My suggestion is of a FU-GO inspired balloon that could have potentially been a "stopgap" whilst ICBMs and longer range higher flying Bombers were being developed.
The above is a naive attempt to illustrate the potential of a balloon weapons platform.
1. The Canopy, I am no expert on balloon configuration, but my understanding is that the amount of weight a Balloon/s can lift is only limited by the size and capacity of said Balloon/s. I believe that a scaled down Warhead could be feasibly carried by a Balloon.
2. By 1947 Radio control was already quite advanced, and although technically "fly by wire" and of limited success "Operation Aphrodite" demonstrates the "outside of the box" thinking that was prevalent in this era.
3. It would be too dangerous to risk sending an armed warhead aloft with a Balloon so the ability to arm and fire remotely would be essential, and could be achieved using R/C.
4. Scaling down the Bomb would mean it required less lift to be carried up, resulting in a smaller Balloon/s.
I feel that it important to address the issue of "aiming" such a device/s. I fully understand that winds are unpredictable and can result in Balloons being blown off course, however if you were to send a multitude at once from different locations, a percentage would make the target area. It is important to note that radio triangulation had been used by the RAF for precision bombing (Mosquito) code name "OBOE" and this could realistically be used to track the balloon/s position, and arm and fire once in the target area, also if the bomb was detonated at altitude the fallout would be spread over a huge area.
The device I have depicted is very basic, however the scientists captured during operation paperclip would have been familiar with "zeppelin"/Balloon technology given that Zeppelins were used by the Germans in WWI and their psychological effect had been well documented, they also had experience aiming "dumb" rockets like the V1 which was essentially just a flying bomb that fell from the sky when its fuel ran out, part of the terror factor of this weapon was its random nature.
Several FU-GO's had been recovered by the US but given that Japan was part of the axis, I wonder if they had already shared this knowledge with the captured German Scientists?
I am convinced that it was something more than a "listening device" because of the miss handled cover-up which I feel was in part intended to "worry" the Russians. That is to say I believe that the intention was to convince Russia that the US was in possession of a weapon that could not be countered with "conventional" technology i.e Anti Aircraft Guns or Interceptor/Fighters. SAMs that could reach the altitude of a balloon did not appear until the 1950s (Project Nike).
I should also mention that the US already had done a lot of research into balloons and that in 1935 the manned Balloon "Explorer II" reached an altitude of 22.066 km (72,400 ft) well beyond the range of any counter measure until the 1950s.
Apologies for any spelling or terminology mistakes.
RE the THW: I think that your theory is the most likely explanation for the Cash Landrum incident, I was trying to highlight what I think many people have ignored or even assigned to the witnesses "religious" interpretation of the event. What I am trying to say is that: it is very hard to convince hostage takers to put down their weapons or release their victims using "force" however if the said hostage takers were "devout" and God commanded them do it, they would be more likely to do so.
All you have to do is convince them that your THW is God or his representative
Creepy Green Light
Paranormal Adept
Balloons and Nukes. Who knew these twos would be paired up? And all along I thought the Lockheed P-3C Orion was a strange delivery choice for the b57 nuclear depth bomb. When flying in the mighty Orion I used to wonder if a turbo prop dropping a nuke at 300 ft altitude was a suicide mission.
Han
piscator ψ
My understanding is that the lower you fly the more chance you have of escaping the Blast:
Any plane touched by the red triangle (blast radius) would be destroyed.
Creepy Green Light
Paranormal Adept
Red Triangle is fascinating. Never looked at it this way but seems to make sense.
Han
piscator ψ
I had forgotten that I had put some of my ideas regarding Roswell on the forum back in 2013:
My interpretation of the 1947 Roswell incident | The Paracast Community Forums
I am going to combine the two, I will post it on the main forum when I have.
My interpretation of the 1947 Roswell incident | The Paracast Community Forums
I am going to combine the two, I will post it on the main forum when I have.
Sub-light
Skilled Investigator
It seems like every time I listen to the show and the subject matter ends up in 1947 stuff, all I hear from everyone including the host is Roswell Roswell Roswell and Ghost Rockets. It's almost as if people who really believe that flying saucers were a real phenomenon are being put down. There's nothing wrong with healthy skepticism but I feel that this is going a little past healthy and just skepticism. I guess for some people they feel that 1947 has been beat to death by the Roswell writers and everyone else but I think the truth is that because so much emphasis is on Roswell which was probably a non-event that everything else going on around that time is discredited. The only thing that I take from "Roswell" is that the Air Force memo showed that the Air Force acknowledged the existence of the Discs. One last thing ...I don't see very much of a connection between Ghost Rockets and flying saucers. I don't think that you can draw a conclusion that it's all the same thing and people just were seeing things and they're confused. Forget Roswell. It's all about the siting wave. I know people act like Donald Keyhoe's book is baby UFology and is almost ridiculed by some like, "oh yeah I read that when I was a teenager" but I implore you read it again and remember the time and perspective under what she wrote that book. (Sometimes I think UFO buffs and those in the UFO "Industry" are actually frightened of the idea that aliens really came here)
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Well it's certainly one of the most frightening thoughts you can imagine, but whether or not that's what happened is another matter. But the impact those '47 cases had in establishing a socio-cultural narrative and new meme needs some evaluation. How do you feel about the idea of aliens being here?
But I agree. I'm tired of the return visits to that era unless you've got something radically new, and would much rather see other eras, and other categories taken on more frequently. That being said, if you look through the back catalogue of the show there's not too many stories, time periods, investigators, categories of paranormal shenanigans that hasn't been taken on already by the Paracast's many hosts. I would think it's hard to create weekly guest scenarios without being repetitive.
What do you think should be/could be covered - a full examination of Keyhoe's book and themes? Put it out there and let's see that ETH get some props as it needs it.
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