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Alternative Explanations for Contactees


DBTrek

The Deacon of Beacon Hill
Below is my attempt to take an Occam’s Razor approach to the UFO Contactee phenomena. Clearly many people believe that they have been contacted/abducted by extra-terrestrial beings. Unless a large segment of the population is predisposed to embarrassing themselves by telling fantastic (and unsubstantiated) stories it stands to reason that many of these people have in fact experienced exactly what they describe.

Yet this is not hard evidence of alien contact.

We must consider what other possible explanations exist for these experiences. Obviously many choose to believe that aliens are in fact traveling over vast distances and/or time to torment/enlighten human beings for unknown purposes. I believe there are more likely culprits.

I offer the following as possible alternative explanations for these experiences:

Drugs – Many hallucinogenic drugs (LSD, psilocibin, Salvorin A, and DMT in particular) are known to cause very realistic and fantastic experiences. Could some portion of these contactees have been unwittingly exposed to such agents without their knowledge? I don’t see why not. The US Government is known to have experimented on it’s own citizenry using hallucinogens, see the MK-ULTRA project.

EM Warfare - Testing of electro-magnetic weaponry on the populace would be a more viable explanation than interstellar travelers. Dr. Michael Persinger’s “god helmet” demonstrated the stimulating the temporal lobes of humans with magnetic fields could create bizarre hallucinations. EM weapons are real, and the descriptions of several others can be found here.

Mental Illness – Contactees are human, some humans are mentally ill.

These alternate explanations do not require a conspiracy of global governments working in concert with aliens to hide the “truth” from the populace. Therefore, to me, they seem more reasonable than the explanation of “aliens grabbed me and then left without a trace”. Precedents for government experimentation on civillian populations exist. Drugs exist. EM weapons exist. Mental illness exists.

Alien craft capable of bridging time and space are speculative.

Thoughts?

-DBTrek
 
I would rule out drugs and EM warfare experiments (not for every case, but as a general explanation for all cases) because they would require a conspiracy of a geographic and temporal scale beggaring belief almost as much as the "government in league with aliens" conspiracy. Further, the government doesn't necessarily have to be in league with aliens for people to be contacted by them. But people have been reporting alien contact for many decades at least, so if drugs or EM warfare experiments were the explanation, it would involve a massive conspiracy spanning the globe (people outside the US, of course, report contact experiences), and throughout time.

I do believe the phenomenon may be closely related to EM effects as well as biological effects however, so these explanations may be a useful piece of the puzzle IMO, if not the full explanation.

As for mental illness, there has been a lot of research done on this possibility in the literature, but as far as I can tell the jury is still "out there" on that one. Certainly it is an explanation for some, possibly many, instances, but I do not think all.

Just my 2 cents.
 
CapnG said:
You forgot sleep paralysis.

I did. I also forgot "self aggrandizement", for taking in to account those who would fabricate a story for attention/publicity/fame/notoriety. That gives us five possibilities that take far less explaination (or strecthing of the imagination) than the popular belief that highly advanced alien civilizations are contacting humans and then vanishing without a trace.

-DBTrek
 
Self aggrandizement would, again, account for some cases, but not all- many contactees remain anonymous, and telling their stories brings them much pain and social or economic hardship.
 
Koji K. said:
I would rule out drugs and EM warfare experiments (not for every case, but as a general explanation for all cases) because they would require a conspiracy of a geographic and temporal scale beggaring belief almost as much as the "government in league with aliens" conspiracy.

I disagree on this point. We have evidence of governments performing exactly these types of experiments, and it required no grand conspiracy . . . just the CIA, or military units willing to use people a guinea pigs and then hiding the evidence the best they could. Of course, they obviously didn't hide it well enough because we have knowledge of the experimets now.

Further, the government doesn't necessarily have to be in league with aliens for people to be contacted by them. But people have been reporting alien contact for many decades at least, so if drugs or EM warfare experiments were the explanation, it would involve a massive conspiracy spanning the globe (people outside the US, of course, report contact experiences), and throughout time.

You raise a good point. The EM testing theory would only apply to experiences within the last 50 years or so. Previous to that it's not a viable explanation.

I do believe the phenomenon may be closely related to EM effects as well as biological effects however, so these explanations may be a useful piece of the puzzle IMO, if not the full explanation.

I agree.

Good points.

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
Below is my attempt to take an Occam's Razor approach to the UFO Contactee phenomena. Clearly many people believe that they have been contacted/abducted by extra-terrestrial beings. Unless a large segment of the population is predisposed to embarrassing themselves by telling fantastic (and unsubstantiated) stories it stands to reason that many of these people have in fact experienced exactly what they describe.

Yet this is not hard evidence of alien contact.

We must consider what other possible explanations exist for these experiences. Obviously many choose to believe that aliens are in fact traveling over vast distances and/or time to torment/enlighten human beings for unknown purposes. I believe there are more likely culprits.

I offer the following as possible alternative explanations for these experiences:

Drugs - Many hallucinogenic drugs (LSD, psilocibin, Salvorin A, and DMT in particular) are known to cause very realistic and fantastic experiences. Could some portion of these contactees have been unwittingly exposed to such agents without their knowledge? I don't see why not. The US Government is known to have experimented on it's own citizenry using hallucinogens, see the MK-ULTRA project.

EM Warfare - Testing of electro-magnetic weaponry on the populace would be a more viable explanation than interstellar travelers. Dr. Michael Persinger's "god helmet" demonstrated the stimulating the temporal lobes of humans with magnetic fields could create bizarre hallucinations. EM weapons are real, and the descriptions of several others can be found here.

Mental Illness - Contactees are human, some humans are mentally ill.

These alternate explanations do not require a conspiracy of global governments working in concert with aliens to hide the "truth" from the populace. Therefore, to me, they seem more reasonable than the explanation of "aliens grabbed me and then left without a trace". Precedents for government experimentation on civillian populations exist. Drugs exist. EM weapons exist. Mental illness exists.

Alien craft capable of bridging time and space are speculative.

Thoughts?

-DBTrek

Uh oh... Many people here don't like Occam's Razor. I'm not one of them.

In my experience, Contactees are often simply liars. Simply put. Abductees generally less so.

"Alien craft capable of bridging time and space are speculative."

So's assuming this is some sort of daunting task for aliens.
 
A.LeClair said:
In my experience, Contactees are often simply liars. Simply put. Abductees generally less so.

"Alien craft capable of bridging time and space are speculative."

So's assuming this is some sort of daunting task for aliens
.

You're right of course, assuming anything about alien beings is nothing more than taking a shot in the dark. We can look at other probabilities though (the few we understand).

In order for other sentient life forms to be visiting us several coincidences have to happen at the same time. For example:

* The aliens visitors must exist right now. Out of the estimated 14 billion years the universe has existed the aliens must co-habit the same time general period we do. Odds of that happening roughly 1 in 1.4 million (assuming a 10,000 year existence for modern humans on earth). Those are bad odds, even in Vegas.

* They must have a way of determining that sentient life inhabits Earth. Odds are incalculable due to the fact that we still have no idea how large the cosmos is. Supposing an advanced alien race does co-habit this time period with us, how would they find us if we are at opposite ends of the universe?

* Supposing the aliens exist in our time period, are aware of us, and are only a short 5 million light years away, they must still have a means for travelling to our location while we are still in existence. If it takes them 5+ million years (at the speed of light) to reach our planet we may well be gone by the time they arrive.

* They have to be able to keep their arrival completely secret and leave behind no hard evidence of their visits.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

I find it far more likely that most contactees with genuine experiences are being effected by unknown factors here on earth. This eliminates trying to explain the vast improbabilities of interstellar/temporal travel. It also opens up for discussion "What might the cause of these experiences be"?

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
* The aliens visitors must exist right now.

Not if they're time travelers...

DBTrek said:
Out of the estimated 14 billion years the universe has existed the aliens must co-habit the same time general period we do. Odds of that happening roughly 1 in 1.4 million (assuming a 10,000 year existence for modern humans on earth). Those are bad odds, even in Vegas.

Yes but in a galaxy of billions and billions of stars, and countless trillions of galaxies those "odds" are practically a guarantee.

DBTrek said:
* Supposing an advanced alien race does co-habit this time period with us, how would they find us if we are at opposite ends of the universe?

Through means unknown to human science. If they can traverse space, this should be a snap for them.

DBTrek said:
* Supposing the aliens exist in our time period, are aware of us, and are only a short 5 million light years away, they must still have a means for travelling to our location while we are still in existence. If it takes them 5+ million years (at the speed of light) to reach our planet we may well be gone by the time they arrive.

Assuming they don't have some sort of "super-science" that eliminates this barrier, which they would have to have in order to get here, rendering this point irrelevant.

DBTrek said:
* They have to be able to keep their arrival completely secret and leave behind no hard evidence of their visits.

Why? Do they have a Prime Directive or something? That's completely assumptive and basically wrong, since obviously sighting reports exist on every CE level. Certainly they would appear to be attempting to maintain a low profile but they aren't necessarily succeeding.
 
CapnG said:
Not if they're time travelers...

Quite so. Though which do you find to be more likely . . . time travelling humans coming back to earth, or a completely alien species of time traveller crossing space and time to come to earth? If backwards time travel is in fact possible (this is highly disputed) then I would think that humans from the future would make far more likely visitors than a time travelling alien species. Humans have far more invested in the historic deeds of humanity than an outside race.

Yes but in a galaxy of billions and billions of stars, and countless trillions of galaxies those "odds" are practically a guarantee.

Quantify that, it sounds like pure conjecture. We're not talking about the possibility of "life" existing elsewhere in the universe, we're talking about a time-travelling, space jumping, highly technologically advanced civilization pinpointing earth out of the entire cosmos and coming here. I find that possibility to be far from 'gauranteed'.

Through means unknown to human science. If they can traverse space, this should be a snap for them.

This assumes quite a bit for which we have no evidence. It's easy to say "If [x] has supernatural or god-like technology/powers than [x] can easily do [anything]". Sure . . . but what in the observable universe even hints at that being the case?

Assuming they don't have some sort of "super-science" that eliminates this barrier, which they would have to have in order to get here, rendering this point irrelevant.

Again . . . if [x] has godlike powers of perception, detecting life in the cosmos, and traversing space/time. . . sure. Of course, this would make them indistinguishable from 'god', and we woould now be discussing a matter more akin to religion than alien technology. 'God' can do anything . . . and so could aliens with 'god's power.

Why? Do they have a Prime Directive or something? That's completely assumptive and basically wrong, since obviously sighting reports exist on every CE level. Certainly they would appear to be attempting to maintain a low profile but they aren't necessarily succeeding.

They're doing just fine at concealing the evidence of their abductions/contacts. They've managed not to leave a shred of hard evidence so far in the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of claimed contacts/abductions.

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
Quantify that, it sounds like pure conjecture. We're not talking about the possibility of "life" existing elsewhere in the universe, we're talking about a time-travelling, space jumping, highly technologically advanced civilization pinpointing earth out of the entire cosmos and coming here. I find that possibility to be far from 'gauranteed'.

You set the odds, not me. The lottery has odds of roughly 1 in 14 million, ten times your estimate, yet lotteries are won all the time. Why? Because hundreds of millions of people play them. As the number of participants increases, the effects of the odds decreses until it reaches a point of nullification (ie someone wins). So yeah, factoring 1/1.4 million into several billion (in just this galaxy alone) it is basically guaranteed (several times in fact) by your odds.

DBTrek said:
This assumes quite a bit for which we have no evidence. It's easy to say "If [x] has supernatural or god-like technology/powers than [x] can easily do [anything]". Sure . . . but what in the observable universe even hints at that being the case?

Again . . . if [x] has godlike powers of perception, detecting life in the cosmos, and traversing space/time. . . sure. Of course, this would make them indistinguishable from 'god', and we woould now be discussing a matter more akin to religion than alien technology. 'God' can do anything . . . and so could aliens with 'god's power.

Assumptions are all we have to go on, since no concrete argument exists either way. Occum's Razor employs common sense as a means of descerning answers to ambiguous question but "common sense" requires "common knowledge" and so cannot be applied to any phenomena completely outside our experience. Once again, the words of Arthur C. Clarke say it best: "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Aliens would not require "god-like powers", merely technology a little ahead of our understanding. Imagine showing a laser pointer to a group of medieval knights; they'd burn you at the stake.

DBTrek said:
They're doing just fine at concealing the evidence of their abductions/contacts. They've managed not to leave a shred of hard evidence so far in the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of claimed contacts/abductions.

Untrue, they've left plenty of "evidence" (sightings, ground burns, video, strange stains, implants, etc, etc) but most of it is disputed. Herein lies the rub: if we cannot prove there is anything "special" about so-called evidence of alien adbuction/contact, then we dismiss it as either irrelevant, a case of mistaken identity or a hoax. That wouldn't actually change the fact that the evidence was of alien origin (if it indeed was) it would just mean we didn't see it that way because it didn't meet with some preconcieved level of "weirdness".
 
DBTrek said:
Below is my attempt to take an Occam's Razor approach to the UFO Contactee phenomena.

My problem with Occams Razor is that it takes the view that the 'simplest explanation' is probably the correct one.

BUT, the 'simplest explanation' is often defined by established science who appear to shy away from open investigation of anything 'exotic' and therefore only ever offer 'mundane' explanations such as 'weather phenomena' or 'swap gas'.

Debunkers will often use Occams Razor in their arguments because they know that science is not offering 'aliens' as an explanation for anything - it isn't 'rational'. It isn't acceptable. It isn't the simplest explanation.

I think Occam's Razor is useless in this area because of this flaw.
 
CapnG said:
You set the odds, not me. The lottery has odds of roughly 1 in 14 million, ten times your estimate, yet lotteries are won all the time. Why? Because hundreds of millions of people play them. As the number of participants increases, the effects of the odds decreses until it reaches a point of nullification (ie someone wins). So yeah, factoring 1/1.4 million into several billion (in just this galaxy alone) it is basically guaranteed (several times in fact) by your odds.

I think there's some confusion on this point, let me try to clarify:

1. Speaking strictly on the issue of co-habitation of time periods between us and an advanced alien race I roughly estimated the odds I at 1 in 1.4 million. This number was reached by taking the estimated 10,000 years that modern man has existed (and recorded images) and comparing it to the 14,000,000,000 years the universe has existed.

2. The number does not reflect the odds that and advanced alien race may in fact exist; only the odds of it existing at the same time we do if such a race does in fact exist. The odds that such an alien race exists at all is a whole other set of probabilities that only serves to compound the unlikeliehood that such beings exist and are visiting us.

3. The number of stars/planets has nothing to do with the odds of us and an advanced alien race existing in the same timeframe, though it would effect the odds that such a race exists at all.

Assumptions are all we have to go on, since no concrete argument exists either way. Occum's Razor employs common sense as a means of descerning answers to ambiguous question but "common sense" requires "common knowledge" and so cannot be applied to any phenomena completely outside our experience.

Space travel is not outside of our experience. Neither is time measurement. Alien technology is outside of our experience, making discussion of it of little use.

Untrue, they've left plenty of "evidence" (sightings, ground burns, video, strange stains, implants, etc, etc) but most of it is disputed. Herein lies the rub: if we cannot prove there is anything "special" about so-called evidence of alien adbuction/contact, then we dismiss it as either irrelevant, a case of mistaken identity or a hoax. That wouldn't actually change the fact that the evidence was of alien origin (if it indeed was) it would just mean we didn't see it that way because it didn't meet with some preconcieved level of "weirdness".

There's a difference between aliens leaving evidence and people pointing to mundane things and claiming they're of alien origin. I sense a paradoxx in your argument insofar as on one hand you argue for aliens having technology unfathomable to us (stuff that allows them to time travel, detect life on one small planet out of the whole cosmos, warp through space at speeds known to us to be physicvally impossible by matter), on the other hand you suggest that the evidence they leave behind is not recognized because it's common material and nothing more advanced than anything humans possess today.

Certainly your explainations are possible, but to my mind they fall far short of probable. Why would a bunch of advanced alien beings who were lucky enough to exist at all, as well as coincidently exist in our time period, have the power to pinpoint our planet out of the vastness of the cosmos, decide use their resources to come here and implant common materials in people?

I think the explainations for contactee experiences offered at the beginning of the thread (as well as the one you added) make a lot more sense, and rate much higher on the 'probability' scale.

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
...warp through space at speeds known to us to be physicvally impossible by matter...

LOL - shot yourself through the foot there.

Always makes me chuckle when the case against ET is basically "we can't do it, so neither can they" or "they'd have to break *our* laws of physics which *we know* is impossible".

Weak.
 
Rick Deckard said:
LOL - shot yourself through the foot there.

Always makes me chuckle when the case against ET is basically "we can't do it, so neither can they" or "they'd have to break *our* laws of physics which *we know* is impossible".

Weak.

Weak? Assuming matter can't break the laws of the physical universe?

Oooooook.

I think assuming that aliens are beings that have godlike technology that defy physical laws as well as an overwhelming interest in the plight of humanity is "weak". The multitude of stupid assumptuions that have to be made in order to explain how contactees are actually communicating with alien beings is "weak".

Unlike contactee claims, physical laws can be tested and verified.

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
3. The number of stars/planets has nothing to do with the odds of us and an advanced alien race existing in the same timeframe, though it would effect the odds that such a race exists at all.

Actually, it has a great deal to do with it. Not all of the stars we see in the sky have exited since the beginning of the universe, including our own sun. There's also absolutely no basis for assuming alien civilizations couldn't start long before ours and survive up to this time, or begin well after ours but through sheer chance (and perhaps a lack of oppressive religious beliefs) advance far faster than ours. Space and time are relative, after all.

DBTrek said:
I sense a paradoxx in your argument insofar as on one hand you argue for aliens having technology unfathomable to us (stuff that allows them to time travel, detect life on one small planet out of the whole cosmos, warp through space at speeds known to us to be physicvally impossible by matter), on the other hand you suggest that the evidence they leave behind is not recognized because it's common material and nothing more advanced than anything humans possess today.

Paradox? Not really. Laser scalpels exist, as do surgical robots but the majority of the medical procedures on this planet are still done by a man with a sharpened piece of metal. Why? Priorities. You don't need to use unecessarily complex technology when simple technology will do the job.

DBTrek said:
I think assuming that aliens are beings that have godlike technology that defy physical laws as well as an overwhelming interest in the plight of humanity is "weak".

Why again the assumption of "god-like" power? They really don't have to be that far ahead of us to do things that would appear baffling to the common man. Even at that, we still recognize it as technologies, as science, not as something mystical.

As for the laws of physics, like any laws they can surely be bent, if not actually broken. We simply lack the means.

Considering these things in terms of "probable" and "possible" seems to me to be increasingly hollow. What's really being discussed is what's comfortable and what's uncomfortable to the human psyche.
 
Sorry, haven't read all the thread yet, might get to it later. I'm a bit burned out on these kinds of arguments so I no longer spend much time on them.

It's funny, some people use Occam's Razor to conclude that we are being visited. The simplest explanation being that we're being visited.

Here's Stanton Friedman's use of Occam's Razor. Taken from Ufoupdates.
http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/jun/m13-021.shtml




"
>The simplest explanation for the best observations(by competent
>observers, investigated by competent investigators like Jim
>McDonald, Bruce Maccabee, John Schuessler etc) whose appearance,
>texture, protuberances clearly indicate they were manufactured,
>and whose behavior-- high speed and no speed, sharp turns, lack
>of noise, exhaust, visible external engines indicates they were
>not made on earth, because if they had been in the 1940s, 1950s,
>we Earthlings would be using them as military craft. They would
>make wonderful weapons delivery and defense systems, able to fly
>circles around anything we have been flying.

>Since we are still building F-16,17,18, MIG 29, Mirage 5 etc,
>what was built back then wasn't built by us, therefore it was
>built at some Extraterrestrial location. Of course that doesn't
>answer all the questions. It just says "not made here". Occam's
>razor applies. ET vehiciles. Have any of you splendid writers
>done field investigations, visited archives, had a security
>clearance? Talk is cheap.

>Stan Friedman
"
 
DBTrek said:
Weak? Assuming matter can't break the laws of the physical universe?

Oooooook.

I think assuming that aliens are beings that have godlike technology that defy physical laws as well as an overwhelming interest in the plight of humanity is "weak". The multitude of stupid assumptuions that have to be made in order to explain how contactees are actually communicating with alien beings is "weak".

Unlike contactee claims, physical laws can be tested and verified.

-DBTrek

You seem to have a lot of faith in these 'laws of physics', despite the fact that Newton's 'laws' are incompatible with Einsteins 'laws' who, in turn, couldn't square his theories with the 'laws' of quantum physics. In short, we are still a long way from a 'Grand Unified Theory of Everything'.

Yet, *you* are making the *big assumption* that our theoretical laws of physics are 100% correct and that they uniformly apply throughout the universe.

The fact is that these sacred 'laws' of physics that 'cannot be broken' that you have so much *faith* in, are merely the 'limits' imposed on a mathetical model that we *humans* created to further our understanding of the nature of the universe. But, they are just *theoretical* limits.

Things are only 'impossible' up to the point where they become 'possible' - it's just a matter of time...
 
CapnG said:
There's also absolutely no basis for assuming alien civilizations couldn't start long before ours and survive up to this time, or begin well after ours but through sheer chance (and perhaps a lack of oppressive religious beliefs) advance far faster than ours. Space and time are relative, after all.

Both true, both good points, though I don't know if that gets us any closer to estimating the probability of such a race existing.

You don't need to use unecessarily complex technology when simple technology will do the job.

Have we discovered what 'job' these alleged implants are supposed to do?

Considering these things in terms of "probable" and "possible" seems to me to be increasingly hollow. What's really being discussed is what's comfortable and what's uncomfortable to the human psyche.

Not at all. Human beings exist (I hope we can agree on that). Highly advanced aliens may or may not. Already the scales of probability tip in favor of the contactee phenomena being caused solely by the known race and not by any number of purely hypothetical races. Several known barriers exist in trying to explain how another race could locate us and travel to our planet. The solutions to these problems are highly speculative, while the problems are quantifiable. Again probability shies away from aliens as an explanation for the phenomena.

Rick Deckard said:
You seem to have a lot of faith in these 'laws of physics', despite the fact that Newton's 'laws' are incompatible with Einsteins 'laws' who, in turn, couldn't square his theories with the 'laws' of quantum physics. In short, we are still a long way from a 'Grand Unified Theory of Everything'.

1. I don't need 'faith' in physics, it's testable.

2. What do you mean "Newton's 'laws' are incompatible with Einsteins 'laws'"?

3. You don't need a Grand Theory of Unification (or faith) to test whether or not an objects mass increases as it approaches the speed of light. It does, and therefore any hypothetical aliens have a serious problem to overcome . . . once they overcome the problem of detecting life on our planet given the entire cosmos to scan.

I know, I know . . . they'll overcome all that with their god-like technology. CapNG will argue that it doesn't have to be godlike, but to defy the known, testable, laws of physics it actually does need to be god-like. We're not talking about taking a workable concept like a spear (or any other primative missile weapon) and eventually reaching the point where a species has advanced to Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles. We're talking about taking a known, testable, limitation of mass and simply discarding it. That's god-like.

Beyond the practice of making aliens analogs to Jesus performing miracles of interstellar travel, how do you propose to explain their detection of life on this particular space rock and subsequent ability to travel here? Not only must the existence of the species be assumed, but so must their mind-bending technology and motivation for coming.

Isn't that an awful lot of speculation for something that can be explained much more easily? What about humans makes supernatural explainations preferable to natural ones? It must be something about our brains.

-DBTrek
 
I have to take issue with Stanton's reasoning:

A.LeClair said:
>The simplest explanation for the best observations(by competent
>observers, investigated by competent investigators like Jim
>McDonald, Bruce Maccabee, John Schuessler etc) whose appearance,
>texture, protuberances clearly indicate they were manufactured,
>and whose behavior-- high speed and no speed, sharp turns, lack
>of noise, exhaust, visible external engines indicates they were
>not made on earth,

This assumes that the observers are flawless in their observations, sober, honest, and mentally sound. Furthermore it assumes all observers are familiar with all types of aerial craft, even those known only to members of top secret government programs. Such an assumption, IMO, is a faulty premise on which to base the rest of his argument.

>because if they had been in the 1940s, 1950s,
>we Earthlings would be using them as military craft. They would
>make wonderful weapons delivery and defense systems, able to fly
>circles around anything we have been flying.

Assumes that if these vehicles existed they would be ready for warfare and not prototypes. Also assumes that the observers are 100% correct in their observation and able to determine all they claim to have determined.

>Since we are still building F-16,17,18, MIG 29, Mirage 5 etc,
>what was built back then wasn't built by us, therefore it was
>built at some Extraterrestrial location.

This is an example of several logical fallacies (Appeal to Belief, Appeal to Authority, and Burden of Proof to name a few) rolled into one enormously wrong statement:

* We build F-16's, 17, 18, MIG 29 Mirage 5 etc.
* Therefore what was observed before was not built by us.
* Therefore these craft were built off planet.

Huh? Sorry, no.

>Of course that doesn't
>answer all the questions. It just says "not made here".

It doesn't answer any of the questions. It simply offers grand speculation.

> Occam's
>razor applies. ET vehiciles. Have any of you splendid writers
>done field investigations, visited archives, had a security
>clearance? Talk is cheap.

Offworld construction of flying craft isn't the simplest answer, so Occam's Razor doesn't apply; and 'yes', I have had a military security clearence and searched archives. So what? Does that give me license to use "Appeal to Authority" and other logical fallacies as without being questioned?

-DBTrek
 
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