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Entertainment or Serious Business – What Is UFOlogy To You?


Green = Trajanus


"I knew about the coelacanth, but a plesiosaur is not only bigger there's no way it could've survived in loch ness during the ice ages."


My understanding is that the current Loch Ness was actually formed during the last Ice Age (about 10,000 years ago) so I agree that it couldn't have survived in it's present location.
I am not sure if plesiosaurs were endotherms but I believe there is evidence to show that they lived in "cold" seas. I understand that the Leatherback Turtle (an extant marine reptile) can quite happily operate in freezing waters, in Alaska for example:

Leatherback Turtles: Cold Blood in Cold Water


For me the biggest issue with nessie is that if it is a Plesiosaur then it would have to breath air because they had lungs, most depictions I have seen show long neck plesiosaurs swimming with their long necks above the water, but maybe they operated at a greater depth and use their long neck like a snorkel on a submarine, Arapimah fish grow very large indeed and also breathe air, but when they come up for a gulp of air, very little of their body emerges above the surface of the water. Loch Ness is very murky making visibility poor especially from above to below water.
Another issue is how would it get into the Loch? because although the river Ness flows into the Loch (connecting it to the sea), it is quite small and a large animal would have trouble hiding in it.
Also if Nessie is an occasional "visitor" from the sea, I would expect one to have been caught in fishing nets by accident, but it is possible they eat a species that man does not fish for (possibly jelly fish?) meaning that the chances of "contact" are reduced. but then why would it be in Loch Ness? there are no jelly fish present. maybe it occasionally goes in the Loch looking for something it doesn't usually eat, like a particular water plant that it cant find at sea, or maybe it just likes the Loch? I know that Killer whales go to certain stony coves to play and rub off parasites. Certain large pelergic fish including sharks frequent "cleaning stations" where they are cleaned of parasites by small fish and they clearly understand the "mutual contract" and do not eat said cleaning fishes even when they enter their mouths, the same is true when oxpeckers and similar small birds clean a Crocodiles teath.
Maybe a brief stay in the fresh water of Loch Ness kills the marine parasites attached to Nessie?
To cut a long story short there are many reasons why an animal could be at any given location, even if it seems out of place.

Having said all that I am not convinced that there is a current Loch Ness monster, but I do entertain the possibility that one was seen in the distant past, and the legend preserved.



"There are also reports of "reptilian" aliens so I think ET is behind the dino sightings too. The coelacanth had remote seas to hide in but it's very hard o believe real dinosaurs survived 66 m.y. after chicxulub. Both cryptids and aliens have evaded real verification, but at least a superior civilization makes that seem credible."


I would go the opposite way, and say that an advanced civilization must have evolved from something, and as yet there is no evidence of even the lowest order of life present outside earth.

All speculation yes, and some would say that the probability of "ET" life is higher than the probability of there not being, but I remain sceptical.

If I was pushed, I would say that: I believe that in the future man will work out time travel, and there is a possibility some UFO's/and or Paranormal events are this.
 
I am not sure if plesiosaurs were endotherms but I believe there is evidence to show that they lived in "cold" seas.

Contrary to what I've read. The shallow epeiric seas of the Cretaceous were warm--great environment for giant turtles as well as plesiosaurs and mosasaurs. Some modern reptiles are adapted to a degree of cold but they'e exceptions.

Another issue is how would it get into the Loch? because although the river Ness flows into the Loch (connecting it to the sea), it is quite small and a large animal would have trouble hiding in it.

Exactly.

and similar small birds clean a Crocodiles teath.

I think that was recently shown to be an old myth.


Maybe a brief stay in the fresh water of Loch Ness kills the marine parasites attached to Nessie?

Can you cite any known analogues for this? What's wrong with saltwater cleaning stations? :)


I would go the opposite way, and say that an advanced civilization must have evolved from something, and as yet there is no evidence of even the lowest order of life present outside earth.

Well, the search for life, even within our solar system, is still in its infancy, and it's more likely certain exoplanets will be far better suited for life than Mars, the moon, Mercury, Venus or Europa.
Anyway my point above was, whereas you can't expect a dumb animal to evade definite verification, an advanced ET civilization could deny us proof of its presence if it chose. Ergo, lack of real verification for cryptids is IMO more of an issue than lack of proof--as far as lay people know--for ET.


If I was pushed, I would say that: I believe that in the future man will work out time travel, and there is a possibility some UFO's/and or Paranormal events are this.

I think it's far more likely we'll develop improved means of space travel. To my knowledge, "time travel" is not a valid concept as it would require faster than light speed.
 
Really good points! Further thought and research required on my part.

I got the idea about cold seas from a documentary about "predator X" so I am unsure how accurate that information was at the moment.

I know somebody I can ask regarding Oxpeckers and Crocodiles, I will post their response when I have it.

RE Anaologues for "Maybe a brief stay in the fresh water of Loch Ness kills the marine parasites attached to Nessie?":

That is just speculation on my part, but I think it can be shown that in some Aquatic creatures a drastic change in salinity can be fatal, I am going to try and find out about what happens to parasites attached to Trout, Salmon and Bull Sharks, when they move between fresh and salt water.


"Well, the search for life, even within our solar system, is still in its infancy, and it's more likely certain exoplanets will be far better suited for life than Mars, the moon, Mercury, Venus or Europa.
Anyway my point above was, whereas you can't expect a dumb animal to evade definite verification, an advanced ET civilization could deny us proof of its presence if it chose. Ergo, lack of real verification for cryptids is IMO more of an issue than lack of proof--as far as lay people know--for ET."


Somethings likeliness or probability doesn't necessarily correlate with it actually happening or being a "reality" e.g Gambling.

I think it is too big a jump for me to get to a position where E.T has evolved along "human" lines of behaviour, I find it easier to imagine that in the distant future humans will have abilities that seem "magic" now. It wont necessarily be a "physical" evolution of the human body or mind, but maybe a technological evolution of our equipment. (sort of like sending our consciousnesses from A to B using WIFI)
It could even be a combination of both "technology and biology" and we will be able to FAX our bodies too! All I know is that we are going places we can't even begin to imagine.

My belief is that the "Paranormal" and UFO's are inseparable and both require a Human, in other words No human no Bigfoot, No human no Aliens, No human no UFO.
That is what makes them so elusive and impossible to prove, but it doesn't mean they don't "exist", or have an impact.

I think the "Trickster" element to so many paranormal/Alien encounters is good evidence to a "Human" MO, maybe it's just me but I can imagine the the "Gods" sitting round playing their version of chess like in Clash of the titans:
04.jpg


And throwing the occasional Nessie or UFO on to the "Board" just for a laugh!

Who knows :eek:
 
I think it is too big a jump for me to get to a position where E.T has evolved along "human" lines of behaviour, I find it easier to imagine that in the distant future humans will have abilities that seem "magic" now.

Sure. It's interesting, though, that no matter how much our technology changes, our basic behavior and motivation stays the same. The ancient Greeks had diplomacy, alliances, secret codes etc.

My belief is that the "Paranormal" and UFO's are inseparable and both require a Human, in other words No human no Bigfoot, No human no Aliens, No human no UFO.
That is what makes them so elusive and impossible to prove, but it doesn't mean they don't "exist", or have an impact.

You mean they're not objectively real, but "in our heads"?
 
Not quite, it is much more complicated than I have the ability to translate.

I believe in Nocebo and Placebo.

And if it was just in the head of the observer we wouldn't have "group" observations.

However woo woo it sounds I suspect that psychogeography may play a role, but maybe not in it's current definition.
 
Mososaurs were air breathers and stuck to warm, shallow bodies of water.

Mosasaur - Wikipedia

They seem to have more in common with plesiosaurs from all accounts. They also were air breathers, and may have been warm-blooded.

Plesiosauria - Wikipedia

They also ate... a lot. That comes with being warm blooded.

A lot more than Loch Ness could likely ever provide. If you've ever been there... it's pretty barren.
 
Mososaurs were air breathers and stuck to warm, shallow bodies of water.

Mosasaur - Wikipedia

They seem to have more in common with plesiosaurs from all accounts. They also were air breathers, and may have been warm-blooded.

Plesiosauria - Wikipedia

They also ate... a lot. That comes with being warm blooded.

A lot more than Loch Ness could likely ever provide. If you've ever been there... it's pretty barren.



The extremely long necks of "plesiosauromorphs" have caused speculation as to their function from the very moment their special build became apparent. Conybeare had offered three possible explanations. The neck could have served to intercept fast-moving fish in a pursuit. Alternatively, plesiosaurs could have rested on the sea bottom, while the head was sent out to search for prey, which seemed to be confirmed by the fact the eyes were directed relatively upwards. Finally, Conybeare suggested the possibility that plesiosaurs swam on the surface, letting their necks plunge downwards to seek food at lower levels. All these interpretations assumed that the neck was very flexible. The modern insight that the neck was, in fact, rather rigid, with limited vertical movement, has necessitated new explanations. One hypothesis is that the length of the neck made it possible to surprise schools of fish, the head arriving before the sight or pressure wave of the trunk could alert them. "Plesiosauromorphs" hunted visually, as shown by their large eyes, and perhaps employed a directional sense of olfaction. Hard and soft-bodied cephalopods probably formed part of their diet. Their jaws were probably strong enough to bite through the hard shells of this prey type. Fossil specimens have been found with cephalopod shells still in their stomach.[55] The bony fish (Osteichthyes), which further diversified during the Jurassic, were likely prey as well. A very different hypothesis claims that "plesiosauromorphs" were bottom feeders. The stiff necks would have been used to plough the sea bottom, eating the benthos. This would have been proven by long furrows present in ancients seabeds.[56][57] "Plesiosauromorphs" were not well adapted to catching large fast-moving prey, as their long necks, though seemingly streamlined, caused enormous skin friction. Sankar Chatterjee suggested in 1989 that some Cryptocleididae were suspension feeders, filtering plankton. Aristonectes e.g. had hundreds of teeth, allowing it to sieve small Crustacea from the water.[58]


200px-Muraenosaurus_l2.jpg

Cryptoclididae - Wikipedia

profundal_benthos_16A.JPG

Loch Ness Profundal Benthos

p8_ostracods_p144.gif

Redirect Notice


"The overall density of benthic ostracods in Loch Ness was reported as 262 340 individuals/m2 by Griffiths et al. (1993)"


Research Loch Ness - Huw Griffiths, David Martin - Spatial Distribution of Benthic Ostracods in the Profundal Zone of Loch Ness


SALMON_468x278.jpg

Meet the REAL Loch Ness monster - a 100lb salmon | Daily Mail Online

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiosauria#cite_note-58


Although it might appear quite barren, I believe the Loch is actually home to quite a lot of life, and before modern industrial pollution and "mechanised" commercial fishing I assume it would have been even more so.

Or maybe nessie doesnt go there to eat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiosauria#cite_note-58
 
"The overall density of benthic ostracods in Loch Ness was reported as 262 340 individuals/m2 by Griffiths et al. (1993)"
A quick google search says their dry weight is between 1-50 ug per individual. Call it 25 on average.

At 100% efficiency, that's 2.5 grams of food per square meter.

Using crocodile food intake from this site:
T0226E11.htm

a 150cm crocodile consumes about 1500-2000 grams of food daily. So a 180cm marine reptile would need to forage 8-10 square meters a day.

Therefore, a 15 meter plesiosaur would need to forage about 100 square meters a day in loch ness.

Maybe?
 
Regardless of whether the lake could support a plesiosaur, I just can't see a plesiosaur being there. An air breathing animal would be seen routinely and be completely verified.
AFAIK plesiosaurs have no post K-Pg fossil record and it's hard to see how one could've survived in loch ness during the ice ages.
 
Re breathing, maybe that is what the long neck is for? it could be possible for it to take a breath through its mouth, only exposing a small amount of its head above the surface of the water
something like this maybe?:

nessi1.png


nessi2.png
 
Trionyx does the same thing and it's no mystery to science. :) Even if some creature was naturally elusive, a carcass probably would've washed ashore or a live one went after bait by now.
 
As soon as you suspend disbelief you become a disinformation agent. Kind of a reverse mole. These people spread the frauds as if they were real. Hooking in new victims to the stupefaction of UFOlogy. UFOlogy needs a reboot. We need to scrap it all. From the 60’s and the contactee movement forward it has been a vessel for feces. People decided they could make money off people’s gullibilities and need to believe in something. There is NO truth to be purchased here just frauds and lies. Truth in anything is not for sale, it just is.


Thoughts?

In ufology, if you completely suspend disbelief, you are as well completely blind. Its about shades of gray, not about binary black or white. If you turn on disbelief 100%, what's the point studying the field at all? You are trying to walk backwards with your eyes closed.

I think that one needs to drop disbelief to about, say 80%, and use multidisciplinary approach from there. I like to call it UFO Forensics.

Actually, at least for myself, there is a completely scientific proof that UFOs are here. Proof comes in a form of widely quoted statistical analysis that Mark Rodeghier on the sample of 441 car engine stalling, across 4 continents, from 1909 to 1981. What gives enormous credibility to the produced graph is that it fits closely to inverse power law (propagation curve of EM & G fields) and it is completely incorruptible, because how are 441 people, on 4 continents, who lived and died over a period of 71 years, going to agree the distances? Here's the diagram:

List of Technical Papers Related to UFOs and Electro Magnetism
 
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