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Sparks, Part II - The Empire Strikes Back


Tommy Allison said:
The ONLY reason that aliens would go out of their way to keep themselves secret from the world, is because they're not supposed to be here.

Nonsense..
You really haven't thought much about this have you?
I suggest maybe reading the Stanton Friedman "Why questions"
Or read through my old posts I explain and point out exactly why any advanced species is more than likely not going to announce themselves on a large scale. This includes even if humans were to go to another planet with intelligent life.

Tommy Allison said:
How much information could they possibly get from sticking something in a human's ass?

There is in fact an extremely clear reason they do this. It's been known mainly in secret by some researchers (It was pretty easy to keep secret because it's an embarrassing factoid rarely shared outside of private conversations); many did not realize what was going on however the evidence was there about as early as the abductions started. Those competent who realized what had been going on all along used it as one of many control points to know if the person is fabricating. Am I going to talk about what exactly is going on in the procedure? No.. the better way it's going to convince anyone is if you or whoever find a random abductee yourself and be willing to ask about it. This is assuming they would be willing to talk about it; probably not.
 
The Hawk said:
Am I going to talk about what exactly is going on in the procedure? No.. the better way it's going to convince anyone is if you or whoever find a random abductee yourself and be willing to ask about it. This is assuming they would be willing to talk about it; probably not.

Oh really? See this is EXACTLY the BS "I-know-something-you-don't-know" attitude I was talking about when Rick felt the need to put me on his imaginary blacklist. It's pathetic. If you have knowledge, SHARE IT, otherwise you just contribute to the ambiguity of the subject.

Here's the deal Tommy; you stick a probe up someone's butt, it stimulates the prostate: bingo, semen sample. No mystery. Why they couldn't give the abductees a copy of Hustler, a cup and ten minutes alone is beyond me. I guess they're in a hurry or something.
 
I figure if human doctors can find reason to check someone's butt out, aliens could too. I'm not surprised they check that area out. It could be as simple as a possible examine. Maybe aliens don't see anything to snicker about, like many of us do.
 
The Intestines, bowel and internal organs carry a lot of very clonable tissues rich in DNA, moreso than other parts of the body, which could also be a reason. I'm not stupid, It's just that if the aliens who come here are so far more advanced than us, regardless of their so called prime directive, they'd be up front about everything. Here's why.

We have yet to find intelligent life on our own. If they can arbitrarily not be on up front terms with us, that means that there must be scads of alien life out there, that we are either unable to find, or unable to admit to finding.

This nonsense that Stanton Friedman and other so called experts on the topic put out there, is exactly that. How can you possibly be an expert on something that you've never touched, never seen, never witnessed, never communicated with, never interacted with, and most certainly have no physical proof of?

It's the same thing that can be said of ghosts, bigfoot, and organized religion. You're an expert in the imaginary until it's on your doorstep wanting to borrow a cup of sugar.

I'm a skeptic, and have absolutely no time for people who claim to experience abduction phenomena until they provide tangible proof.

The reason why I'm a skeptic, is because some jackass who is one of the premier UFO'logists wanted me to do some work for him, for free, for publicity, and when I wanted to call him and talk to him about it, he sends me an e-mail about how a MIB came to his place, and roughed up his secretary, where she was incoherent for 9 minutes afterward.

I have the e-mail saved. I send it to people who need a little dose of reality where UFOLOGY is concerned.

When Stanton Friedman produces a damned spaceship, or uses his knowledge to bring one down, then I'll believe what he has to say. Until then, it's all bunk. I believe in nothing a so called expert says.

I myself have seen things I cannot explain, I actually have photographic evidence, verified by my local newspaper. Nobody knows anything. Until these things land and make their presence known, their agenda cannot be ascertained.

Nobody keeps goodness a secret. Everyone keeps Evil a secret. It's that simple.
 
CapnG said:
Oh really? See this is EXACTLY the BS "I-know-something-you-don't-know" attitude I was talking about when Rick felt the need to put me on his imaginary blacklist. It's pathetic. If you have knowledge, SHARE IT, otherwise you just contribute to the ambiguity of the subject.

Eh point taken..

I just don't like talking about all the little details of abduction.. It's a two sided problem; sharing detail helps the average person learn about the phenomenon but on the other hand should details be thrown all over the internet helping frauds pretend or imagine that they were abducted? Some like me are obsessed with the truth of the topic are PARANOID about anything that helps frauds. If I went into abduction research full time I'd have so many control points and have it so well documented that my patients would probably have me murdered for being so methodical.

..Given not a ton of people visit these boards and it's not some super secret information; the point was that the procedure has a purpose and that's about all that matters really IMO. And if he researched it and learned it himself from an abductee it would be more worthwhile interpersonal information.

Tommy Allison said:
The reason why I'm a skeptic, is because some jackass who is one of the premier UFO'logists wanted me to do some work for him, for free, for publicity, and when I wanted to call him and talk to him about it, he sends me an e-mail about how a MIB came to his place, and roughed up his secretary, where she was incoherent for 9 minutes afterward.
I have the e-mail saved. I send it to people who need a little dose of reality where UFOLOGY is concerned.

Why not name him here?
Paracast forums is as good a place as any.

I could probably post a few unimpressive responses I've gotten from UFOlogist PR boxes lol. If one gives me any nonsense you can bet money I'd post it somewhere.
 
Hang on a second. If:

Tommy Allison said:
You're an expert in the imaginary until it's on your doorstep wanting to borrow a cup of sugar.

AND

Tommy Allison said:
I'm a skeptic, and have absolutely no time for people who claim to experience abduction phenomena until they provide tangible proof.

BUT!

Tommy Allison said:
I myself have seen things I cannot explain, I actually have photographic evidence, verified by my local newspaper.

Then who needs "experts"? I've had strange experiences, seen unusual things too. Do I discount the possibility that they could have been imaginings or hallucinations? No. But do I automatically ASSUME they were simply because it's more conmfortable to do so? Certainly not! How do I benefit by lying to myself? And photographic proof! That's more than I've ever had!

Point is, you can't let one bad experience ruin your perception. If someone throws crap in your face, you can't conclude it's suddenly become dark out, you have to wipe it off and keep going.

The Hawk said:
I just don't like talking about all the little details of abduction.. It's a two sided problem; sharing detail helps the average person learn about the phenomenon but on the other hand should details be thrown all over the internet helping frauds pretend or imagine that they were abducted? Some like me are obsessed with the truth of the topic are PARANOID about anything that helps frauds. If I went into abduction research full time I'd have so many control points and have it so well documented that my patients would probably have me murdered for being so methodical.

Your concerns are understanble but ill-founded. That information is already present on the net in many variations. I gave the reason I have read most often that makes the most sense. Certainly there are others and Tommy can research them if he wishes. Frauds however will always exist, lying, exploiting, muddying the field. Trying to prevent new ones from appearing is a fool's errand. Better to focus your efforts on exposing those that already exist.
 
I am not letting one bad experience ruin anything.

Here's the deal. I have photos of a UFO. I have photos and video of a UFO that made the papers in Minneapolis. That's all I have. I've seen many strange things however...

I'm not lying to people about having a man in black coming into my place and roughing up my secretary. I'm not lying about Reptoids taking over the earth. I'm not trying to pass off the skull of a long dead child as that of a space alien hybrid. I'm not trying to scam someone out of their money, nor am I making false predictions that I can disregard later like Sean David Moron, or Evelyn Haglini.

The thing about the whole UFO phenomena, is that it's great that we all can talk about it. It's just that in order to get at the truth, we must have to filter through so much absolute crap to get to it. We shouldn't have to, if it's based in reason, and science. So much of the Alien phenomena is all based on feelings, and New Age nonsense.

There are plenty of confirmed sightings via radar, airforce pilots, airline pilots, the military and law enforcement, and if ANY of them speak out on it, they are labeled as a loon. Why do you suppose that is? Because the UFO community hasn't exorcised itself of the wacko fringe element. People like Steven Greer, Dave Serada, Sean David Morton, Billy Meier, David Icke, and a whole host of other frauds are polluting the stream of information, with absolute bunk.

The UFO Community hails a lot of these frauds as being legitimate, when in fact they are there simply to make UFOlogy to look like the pastime of lunatics, and weirdos living in their parent's basement.

If there were a final solution to idiocy in the UFO community, the trains would never stop running. It is only AFTER the community purges itself of the fringe wackos who serve to marginalize the people who search for answers, that it will be taken seriously.

The people who see the unusual, who look for it, will always see it, and find it. It's the same crap with the people who hunt ghosts and Bigfoot. You can make your evidence fit any scenario if you're not obejctive. That's the problem with 99 percent of the UFO community, they see flying saucers at every turn, but... Are they from outer space? We have no ideas about them at all, other than what we have on video, or in photos. That's as far as it goes. Until we have a physical artifact from one, we know absolutely nothing about them.

BY WE, I MEAN THE GENERAL PUBLIC. The military, the government, the powers that be, who knows what they have in their vast vaults of things that are kept out of the hands of the common person? We have no idea what the governments of the world have been hiding from the respective people of planet Earth. If we did, it would change EVERYTHING about our society, how we live, and what we live for. Imagine not living for the acquisition of wealth, because you don't have to. It would change everything, which is why I would imagine everything is kept super secret.

We can talk about how many we've seen, how to document them, how to collect video and photographic evidence, but even then, what do we know about them? Nothing.

I'm not denegrating the UFO truth movement, I want to see all the idiocy and lunacy removed from the equation. If you look objectively at UFOlogy, you see clearly patterns of force, that are detrimental to finding out the truth. It is the lunatic fringe, and wacko element that has prevented people from taking it seriously, or allowed REAL Scientific Investigation into the phenomena, without consequences for those involved.

My point of view isn't just from one bad experience, It's from MANY. Way too many morons out there writing books about reptoids, and angels profiting from the duped masses who want to believe in something that makes them feel special.

Just like the retards writing books about how they hunt aliens, or how they've got a skull belonging to an alien hybrid. Until REAL science is involved, the UFO community will continue to be marginalized. It is by design, not by accident that so many people involved in the UFO Truth Movement, are wackos, or are full of crap. If people were told the truth about everything, there would be a reckoning the likes of which no human has ever seen before.

If people were to find out they weren't alone in the universe, a lot of things would change overnight, and you know as well as I do, there are certain people in power who are terrified of change, because if things do change, they lose their power, their wealth, their status. It is these selfish evil people who control things, and the truth directly threatens them.

Sorry for the longwinded rant, it's just that so many people do not get the problems with the UFO Community because they want it to be all inclusive. Well, the fact of the matter is that it cannot be all inclusive, because it obstructs people from getting to the truth.
 
Tommy Allison said:
It's just that if the aliens who come here are so far more advanced than us, regardless of their so called prime directive, they'd be up front about everything. Here's why.We have yet to find intelligent life on our own. If they can arbitrarily not be on up front terms with us, that means that there must be scads of alien life out there, that we are either unable to find, or unable to admit to finding.This nonsense that Stanton Friedman and other so called experts on the topic put out there, is exactly that. How can you possibly be an expert on something that you've never touched, never seen, never witnessed, never communicated with, never interacted with, and most certainly have no physical proof of?

He's about as much of an expert in the topic as can be because he's studied much of the data and talked with many witnesses first hand.
What makes those other things a necessity to be an expert?
Nothing just your viewpoint.
People can be highly qualified in a number of subjects where it's the same kind of deal or even less to go by for example: Historians; most historians rely solely on documents not even witness interviews or study of physical traces like some ufologists.

Secondly you call Friedman's 'why' questions/example answers nonsense. Yet bizarrely albeit hypocritically proclaim that your answer to a 'why' question is the only possible correct one. Both of you offer educated guesses his with more background/experience to make that educated guess. Does it make his more valid? Not necessarily.
But I can say one thing for certain yours is a extremely narrow view of alien motive.

Tommy Allison said:
It's insane to think that an alien species with altruistic intentions would knowingly come to this planet, and not announce themselves. Doing stuff in secret when it would be incredibly remarkable to find another life form of even the most basic intellect? I can't believe it. In fact, I don't.
The ONLY reason that aliens would go out of their way to keep themselves secret from the world, is because they're not supposed to be here.
 
The Hawk said:
most historians rely solely on documents not even witness interviews or study of physical traces like some ufologists.

No offence Hawk but that's kinda absurd. One word: Museum.
 
Sure most historians probably like going to museums.
Do they study the artifacts in detail? No many do not.
What do the artifacts truly tell a historian about historic events?
They may learn some history of the makers of artifacts, what the norms were for clothing etc etc how they made them and how the designs evolved. (often document/teacher based information also)
But that doesn't tell them about who fought in the battle of whosawhatsit or anything about the majority of their study which is based in documents.
 
That's not really relevant. The point is the artifacts exist, are available for study, are well documented and are on public display. Ufology has nothing comparable.
 
No, you seem to be missing my point entirely which was connected to a line of reasoning to counter another person's saying that ufologists can't be experts..

"How can you possibly be an expert on something that you've never touched, never seen, never witnessed, never communicated with, never interacted with, and most certainly have no physical proof of?" -Tommy

That historians and many in other fields rely as individuals on no more methods of study than individual ufologists.

A historian relies on eye witness or passed down information (documents and sometimes photos, paintings) and government information (documents) to piece together events and motives. They don't rely on studying of physical artifacts and if and when they do; the artifacts don't prove much about the events of study in the first place. And they certainly can't communicate with the dead or witness the historical events through time-space.
 
The Hawk said:
A historian relies on eye witness or passed down information (documents and sometimes photos, paintings) and government information (documents) to piece together events and motives. They don't rely on studying of physical artifacts and if and when they do; the artifacts don't prove much about the events of study in the first place. And they certainly can't communicate with the dead or witness the historical events through time-space.

That is the most ridiculous line of reasoning I have ever heard. Not to mention totally contradictory to reality and denegrating to historians.

Imagine you're an historian doing research on a particular Civil War officer. You have his papers, letters he wrote, letters that were written to him, photographs of him, a family tree, living descendents you can talk to and perhaps even his uniform (complete with bullet hole and bloodstain) and wargear to examine. You can know this man as well as you know that third cousin you only see at christmas, better even, despite the fact he's been dead for more than a century.

Comparatively, ufologists haven't even got the guy's NAME, at least not for certain. There is no comparison here, NONE.
 
You appear to be somehow under the odd idea that I'm saying historians have the same or less potential evidence to go by than UFOlogy..
You dont' get it; that's not what I'm talking about.
 
The Hawk said:
You appear to be somehow under the odd idea that I'm saying historians have the same or less potential evidence to go by than UFOlogy..
You dont' get it; that's not what I'm talking about.

Well then please feel free to clarify because right now it seems to me that you're claiming that historians and ufologists are equally capable of claiming the title "expert" simply because they used similar methods of research. And if that is the case then that's silly. Expertise isn't a merely matter of methodology, it's a matter of knowledge, CORRECT knowledge, DEMONSTRABLE knowledge. Historians have that in spades. Where is that in ufology? How therefore can any ufologist be an "expert"?
 
CapnG, it sounds to me as if you need to carry out more research on the subject. If you do, you will find plenty of hard evidence. For example, the information Stanton Friedman has dug up on Roswell is about as solid as it gets, and more than qualifies him for an expert.

There are official government papers from all over the world, pertaining to UFOs, as in "Unidentified Flying Objects". It is easy to forget that, much of the time, even governments don't know the origin of those craft.

There are radar logs, photos, videos, thousands upon thousands of eye-witness accounts, including those from "credible" sources, i.e. policemen, airline pilots, astronauts (in particular Russian), high-ranking military, an American president, and astronomers.

In light of all this evidence, I regard it as irrational to doubt the reality of UFOs. However, I am perhaps in a different position from most, since I have seen a UFO myself, many years ago - long before stealth bombers and cruise missiles were around.

Of course, I know that many popular UFO photos and videos are fake. Such is life. This situation will only change, once the subject has evolved from a mere circus, to a serious field of study. It will happen one day, but I am not holding my breath.
 
Beyond what I've said so far, regardless of how much solid evidence there is or not.. my personal opinion is that someone can be an expert in something as long as they have the information straight regardless if they are truthful events or not. For example a extremely knowledgeable professor of religion or myth. They can be an expert about what the followers claimed throughout history, what they did or just the information of the religious documents. If they are experts only in the myth presented then that's that. They are not somehow less worthy of being called an expert ..so ridiculous..
I see no point continuing this useless terminology disagreement/misunderstanding.
 
musictomyears said:
In light of all this evidence, I regard it as irrational to doubt the reality of UFOs. However, I am perhaps in a different position from most, since I have seen a UFO myself, many years ago - long before stealth bombers and cruise missiles were around.

Who said anything about discounting evidence or doubting the existence of UFOs? All I'm saying is putting ufologists and historians on the same level is silly. When the Roswell museum has actual recovery documents, ship fragments and a real pickled alien on display, then and only then will the playing field level out.

Now Friedman is a unique example. In fact, in his particular case, I think a new classification of "ufo historian" might be needed, since ufologist has taken on a bit more of a woo-woo flavour thanks to interference from random nutjobs and conmen attempting to use the term to give their own whacked out theories credence in order to sell books.

All the same, what has Friedman got REALLY? The authenticity of the MJ-12 documents are heavily debated to this day. Roswell remains an ever-clouded mess that only gets less clear with the passage of time. Kecksburg, Rendalsham, Shag harbour... all still very much unconfirmed, unexplained or purposefully obscured. Stacks of papers and reports and hours of video that provide no answers and only beg more questions. So in reality, Stanton is an "expert" on nothing, since none of these things can be proven to actually have been what they are popularily claimed to be.

And Hawk, if that's your personal opinion fine, just realize that by your criteria half the people on this board could be considered "experts".
 
I've come to a realization about why things are the way they are in the UFOlogy realm.

I'll outline it here.

There's a concerted effort by certain people to marginalize anyone who searches for the truth. The reasons are many but the big ones are as follows.

1. Proof of Extra-Terrestrial, or Xeno-Terrrestrial Life, would change the paradigm of people's belief systems. Meaning, every church, synagogue, mosque, or temple would find themselves having to justify why people should continue to believe in the dogma taught in these institutions, when undisputed proof or exposure of Extra-Terrestrial Life exists? Every powerful institution would have many questions to answers, and there could be violent consequences for perpetrating lies for the last 2000 years or more.

Imagine the disgust of the rest of humanity for organized religion, if they were to be held accountable for 2000 years of lies.

2. If we are being covertly visited by aliens, who perform experiments on people, and animals against our will, it would prove that our government was impotent and could not protect us from forces not of this earth. With that said, we couldn't protect ourselves against 19 jackasses with boxcutters on 9-11, what makes you think your government is any better equipped to protect you from aliens who take you from your bed at night?

They need to make damned sure that nobody gets any ideas about not paying their taxes, or obeying the laws that these sellouts have passed.

3. What would the consequences be for those who have made secret agreements with these beings, if the truth were to come out? The people of the planet used as cattle for bizarre experiments, DNA collection, and what not, as part of some agreement for technology? Who truly benefits from this agreement? More importantly, how is it that the humans who have sold out their kind to these beings, have become the frontmen for the human race?

The issue is that nobody should be selling out their kind so that a certain group of people can wield penultimate power over the rest of us.

4. Lastly. The idea of aliens coming to earth to arbitrarily take our DNA like some kind of Wild Kingdom episode seems funny to me, because we've been told that they've searched for years, and haven't found anything. In a universe as huge as this one, one would think that finding ANY kind of lifeform would be beyond extraordinary, not just for us, but for the aliens. When we find a new species in the wild, we proclaim it to the high heavens. We are finding new species all the time, and the funny part is, this planet is just teeming with life. The aliens, having traveled these huge and great distances must have an appreciation for how rare life is, even primitive intelligent life.

If they are altruistic, or travelers from another world, regardless of their prime directives, they would openly and publicly visit us for the simple reason that if life is so rare in the universe, it would be important that it is recognized, even if it is primitive.

The stuff going on with people being abducted, or seeing these UFO's isn't at all open or public. In fact, it's quite the opposite. They work clandestinely, and when you pare it all away, you realize that if they were good, and trying to be helpful, they'd be out there in the open doing their thing.

It tells me that their agenda is beyond sinister, possibly malevolent.
 
Tommy Allison said:
It tells me that their agenda is beyond sinister, possibly malevolent.

Consider that that is a human perspective. We may be nothing more than a resource to them. If trees suddenly gained sentience they would no doubt see us as evil for turning their kin into furniture.
 
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