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March 29, 2015 — James Carrion


Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
In this episode we learned more about Carrion's investigations into early UFO history and the involvement of intelligence operatives.

We also learned about his concerns about a UFO group such as MUFON, which appears to be collecting lots of information but not really doing all that much with it.

Your comments are welcome.
 
In this episode we learned more about Carrion's investigations into early UFO history and the involvement of intelligence operatives.

We also learned about his concerns about a UFO group such as MUFON, which appears to be collecting lots of information but not really doing all that much with it.

Your comments are welcome.

The concluding chapter of McCampbell's book (linked below) describes the capabilities that would be required of a computer working with a downloaded database of information presented in the full range of witnessed ufo sightings and enabling the kinds of cross-references usable by scientists in developing their hypotheses concerning ufos. Supercomputers such as those located at Florida State University's MagLab and at another university in Texas (and who knows where else?) might serve the purpose, but are they tasked with this purpose? Again who knows? We're not likely to know. And how likely is it that a civilian ufo research organization such as MUFON could either obtain access to one of these supercomputers or obtain one of their own?

Ufology - Chapter 10
 
The concluding chapter of McCampbell's book (linked below) describes the capabilities that would be required of a computer working with a downloaded database of information presented in the full range of witnessed ufo sightings and enabling the kinds of cross-references usable by scientists in developing their hypotheses concerning ufos. Supercomputers such as those located at Florida State University's MagLab and at another university in Texas (and who knows where else?) might serve the purpose, but are they tasked with this purpose? Again who knows? We're not likely to know. And how likely is it that a civilian ufo research organization such as MUFON could either obtain access to one of these supercomputers or obtain one of their own?

Ufology - Chapter 10
Or a SETI-style screensaver, should be do-able?
 
As skeptical as Carrion is, it's surprising that he finds abductions intriguing.
I think what was very interesting is that the AMP project at MUFON just gathered "data dust" and never completed the analysis. This is evidence that MUFON does not take its own research projects very seriously, imo.

Abduction phenomena is very real... I think there are many explanations, and there will never be just a few causes for this phenomena. Imo.

James, in the case you investigated, were the abductions always associated with sleep? Did the person end-up somewhere else from where they were abducted? Did it happen multiple times over years or with more than one person? Can you tell us more about this case that made it so compelling without identifying the victims?

Thanks.
 
As skeptical as Carrion is, it's surprising that he finds abductions intriguing.

Well he didn't really put that into context so i hope he will if he joins us here which he seems inclined to do. At the same time he doesn't rule out visitations mostly because he can't and I find that sort of pragmatism very refreshing and I find his reasoning sound in the context of safely ruling some theories out because it flies in the face of conventional wisdom at least as it relates to probable military intelligence shananigans. At the same time it's almost like he acknowledges the burden of proof paradox in that you may not be able to prove something exists but if you can't prove something doesn't exist...to those that haven't listened to the show yet those are NOT his words but my feelings...then i guess you have to pay a little lip service to its possibility. His investigative background really came through once again.

Note to Curt, you did fine my brother, give yourself a couple of pats on the back for stepping up to the plate the way you did.

As far as after the paracast, I was slightly amused because it was almost like I was channeling Chris in his summation of the Rountree news as far as my post in the eponymous thread but then there was no magick necessary. it was just common sense.
 
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As far as MUFON, it just goes to show you that it's not immune to the same ills that affect nearly any organization that gets bloated and has to come up with questionable alliances to come up with money or visibility or both in an attempt to makes itself palatable to the public at large. The fox gets into the hen house. I think the Los Angeles chapter did a very wise thing a year and a half ago.
 
He never made me laugh. He's more sterile than the inside of a Lysol can. Bud a bump. He's more sterile than an unopened Band-Aid. Bud a bump. But I know he means well.
 
The Military Industrial Entertainment Complex! :D

James, that X-Files episode is brilliant and hilarious!!!

If anyone has not seen this episode, then you are missing "the essence" of what we're debating here on the level of fantastic entertainment. You can stream it free with Amazon Prime.

The episode is titled: Jose Chung from Outer Space
 
The Military Industrial Entertainment Complex! :D

James, that X-Files episode is brilliant and hilarious!!!

If anyone has not seen this episode, then you are missing "the essence" of what we're debating here on the level of fantastic entertainment. You can stream it free with Amazon Prime.

The episode is titled: Jose Chung from Outer Space
Absolutely one of their finest. In terms of out of the norm episodes it's next to The Unnatural.
 
Gene, I sense another great debate here.

I'd like to second this excellent notion. The Paracast has brought us some fantastic debate and roundtable style episodes, and this would be an extremely worthy addition to that collection of awesomeness, if you guys can make it happen. Is there any hope for something like this, Gene?

As for this weeks episode, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the comments about James being "sterile" are a bit misplaced. This isn't a comedy podcast, after all. I feel like James is more concerned with presenting his information in a clear and concise manner, than he is with being funny or entertaining. That's as it should be, imo. I thought he was an excellent guest with a lot of interesting new information, and that he did a great job getting it across.

In my opinion, James is just the right amount of skeptical. He doesn't make broad, sweeping generalizations, isn't afraid to say "I don't know," and he doesn't dismiss things out of hand because they violate established UFO mythology, or because they conflict with his personal POV. He's all about the evidence. That's more than can be said for many researchers in this field.

I hope to hear James on the show in the future when he finishes his Roswell book. If you think questioning the reality of the Ghost Rockets' got some feathers ruffled, just wait until that book drops.
 
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I'd like to second this excellent notion. The Paracast has brought us some fantastic debate and roundtable style episodes, and this would be an extremely worthy addition to that collection of awesomeness, if you guys can make it happen. Is there any hope for something like this, Gene?

As for this weeks episode, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the comments about James being "sterile" are a bit misplaced. This isn't a comedy podcast, after all. I feel like James is more concerned with presenting his information in a clear and concise manner, than he is with being funny or entertaining. That's as it should be, imo. I thought he was an excellent guest with a lot of interesting new information, and that he did a great job getting it across.

In my opinion, James is just the right amount of skeptical. He doesn't make broad, sweeping generalizations, isn't afraid to say "I don't know," and he doesn't dismiss things out of hand because they violate established UFO mythology, or because they conflict with his personal POV. He's all about the evidence. That's more than can be said for many researchers in this field.

I hope to hear James on the show in the future when he finishes his Roswell book. If you think questioning the reality of the Ghost Rockets' got some feathers ruffled, just wait until that book drops.

I imagine this debate would be Must See radio. If I remember correctly, Scott Ramsey and Kevin Randle's debate was fantastic, and awkward at times, radio. The dynamic of a believe almost everything point of view against a what does the evidence say based approach is too good to be true.
 
The interview was interesting indeed and not convinced the Roswell affair was simple Weather Balloon or secret technology . What it was the object had to be moved fast as the owners?? we on their tale. James Carrion book which I purchased is great read and look forward to his next one . The Roswell affair in 1947 and the fly over Washington in 1953 was it the owners asking for their toy back? or another group ? I disagree that all photos taken these days are altered by digital devices and look its rather great way to stop folks looking for unknowns , Wonder how many photos around the World of holiday makers take while flying over oceans or rivers ever look closely at their images.
 
Eh,

Didn't really care for this episode. Carrion knocks MUFON for not being serious researchers or conducting themselves "professionally," but then posts a provocative, and useless message goading MUFON on their facebook page. I don't think his post helped UFO research, I don't think it got us closer to the truth, nor do I think it began a constructive dialog in a mature manner. It was an attempt to troll them and get a rise out of a select people. It worked, and they inappropriately (I believe) deleted his post.

Carrion seems to behave like a scorned ex-lover or girl friend left at the alter. It is very clear he is bitter due to his falling out with MUFON, but rather than go away and pursue decent research, he just goads them and spends too much of his time criticizing them. They have a bad UFO show, move on, don't watch it, write more about ghost rockets and give it away for free...who cares!

Curiously, for a guy to have such strong opinions about current day MUFON, he admits, he has no idea how it is currently run, what research is being conducted, where the money is being spent, or what their position is. He isn't even sure how a director is selected these days. However, despite his ignorance he goes on...

Clearly, Carrion is a bright guy, though it is hard to see his position as being objective. He wants good research, in a "scientific manner" but then engages in childish name calling by referring to Stanton Friedman as a "coward." Not sure, that term is used at too many "scientific conferences" nor is it even productive.

Finally, my biggest complaint with Carrion is one which I have with others, that is he views the topic entirely through his colored lens. Carrion claims his passion is "Cold War and Intelligence History." As such, he of course can write most early UFO cases away as "cold war and intelligence" operations. Simiarly, Dolan, sees the topic as it pertains to "The National Security State" and pushes the idea of secrecy in government...why? Because that is his background. Similary, Friedman sees everything in terms of Roswell and MJ-12, why? Because that was his start in this business.

At the end of the day, I am not sure Carrion is doing anyone any favors. His work into ghosts rockets may very well be interesting, but it is hard to take him seriously, or want to engage his work, when he sounds like a bitter bride left at the alter of MUFON.
 
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James, can you tell us anything more about the Texas military saucer that washed-up on a beach? Was there a picture or drawing of it? When? Where? Thanks.
I hope James does answer about the source of that. It sounds very familiar, but the one I recall reading about was from around 1950 and turned out to be a rumor. Of course, it's possible such stories were planted...
 
Also, I wanted to point out that much of James's thesis has to do with his claim that select military and deception operatives were in key positions during the times of his research. He points out the first director of the CIA was on the board of NICAP. He then argues, and I am paraphrasing, "isn't odd someone with a strong intelligence background is found on the board of a UFO group, how does someone with that kind of background end up on NICAP" to which Gene pointed out he was a classmate of Kehoe's.

Does anyone else see the irony in all of this? Carrion himself claims a military intelligence background, yet somehow found his way into a high position at MUFON. Carrion can't have his cake and eat it too. Either intelligence guys are ordered to partake in the UFO field as evidenced by Hillenkoetter's presence at NICAP or military intelligene people can honestly take an active look at the phenomena, as what "seems" to be the case with Carrion. If the latter is unreasonable, then I find it unreasonable that Carrion himself could end up on the board of a MUFON! He too must have been ordered there.

With that in mind, who is to say Carrion himself is not part of the deception, since his whole thesis is based on intelligence operatives, getting into key positions while muddying the waters and deceiving researchers. Where does that put him? How does he have any credibility on the subject? Perhaps, he too is just muddying the waters and engaging in deception, he certainly has the background for this!

One final point, though Carrion points to instances where the intelligence field may have engaged in a "deception" by bumbling out world-wide press reports aimed at code breaking, what about all the ulta-classfied documents that genuinely leaked out of FOIA in the 70's. They were NOT made for public consumption and do seem to indicate both our military and intelligence agencies were dealing with an actual phenomena they deemed to be Top Secret. Not every document can be for "code breaking" or deception, there are frankly too many of them and to use that many would be redundant.

I am not a big believer in the whole UFO men from outer space flying in tin looking hubcaps, so I am not approaching this topic from the believer part of the spectrum. However, I think that Carrion has a very myopic view of the field and sees everything through his colored "military intelligence" lens.
 
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Carrion seems to be focused on trying to do serious research to find supporting documents to support his ideas. He is precisely correct that WWII used a lot of code breaking and deception techniques, and these would simply be carried on to defeat the perceived Soviet threat.

I loved that X-Files episode that ends its tale with Mulder using the idea and saying: The Military Industrial Entertainment Complex.

Back then it would be newspapers, radio, magazines, movies, and books. There obviously were disinformation and propaganda campaigns put into play by the military, intelligence, and special interests involving entertainment's intersection with media. There was a very high degree of paranoia with nuclear weapons, a perceived enemy, and Air Power was seen as the next battlefield to dominate warfare.

Whether the military or intelligence knew this Saucer Concept would derail over to ET-UFO's by accident with media hysteria or was planned for other reasons is where Carrion is trying to help sort this out. Keel certainly stated that the military and PTB became very concerned about the hysteria that can be created over UFO's and that was their overriding concern. That UFO waves of hysteria could be used for psychological warfare purposes on civilian and military targets. So, the military and intelligence services were certainly going to explore all those avenues of interests to learn the potential dangers and uses to control a population or defeat an enemy.

Then you have the MIC special interests too. Concept and experimental aircraft needed cover and UFO's was the way to do it. There was a whole entertainment industry growing around UFO's and science fiction too.

So, there is no one answer, since there are so many special interests at play with their own agendas. We do know for a fact that the military and intelligence PR and propaganda is used in movie making and all forms of media, when those subjects are covered, so there has always been power and influence to shape the entertainment industry for their special interest purposes too.

Carrion's focus is only within those very early years, when all these special interests were just ramping-up from their infancy to give birth to the powerful influences these later became. Thankfully, he seems interested in uncovering whatever he can find about what the military and intelligence services were doing with this UFO mythology, and he didn't drink the Koolaid that ET is behind it all.

MUFON does not analyze their data into any useful purpose, and that is a fact. It is controlled by interests that prefer Hanger 1 entertainment, and it was probably destroyed long ago by intelligence targeting AND ET believers. Mufon is nothing more than "data dust" collection that TV and movie entertainment will use. And, the data will be analyzed by intelligence services for their own purposes. It's really a "front organization" for the Military Industrial Entertainment Complex.
 
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