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Rick Deckard said:
Scientists don't "know" anything. They have theories, models and equations that *seem* to offer an acceptable explanation of observable phenomena.

That's crap. You can wander down the "Well, what do we really KNOW about ANYTHING?" path if you choose. As far as I'm concerned there's a bottom line, a solid foundation of absolute truths, even if we don't properly understand them. Also the term "theory" gets alot of bad press. Our current understanding of gravity is a "theory" but that doesn't mean if I decide I don't believe it I will suddenly float away.

Rick Deckard said:
The problem with scientists is that if they can't boil something down to a set of equations or re-create it in a lab they don't want to deal with it - they assume that everything can be explained by scientific method alone. I think that offers a very narrow view of the world.

Well then that's the ego of the scientist, not the fault of science itself. Science is the business of being wrong, after all. Most experiments fail, it's a system of trial and error (with the emphasis on error). You have to eliminate countless "wrongs" before you hit a "right". If you can't find a "right" it doesn't follow that there ISN'T one, however, it just means our level of scientific understanding and methods simply isn't far enough along to find it yet.

Rick Deckard said:
There's religion at one end and science at the other - I suspect the 'answer to everything' is somewhere in between. Until the *zealots* in both camps realize that, we're never gonna get the full picture.

I don't think there's an "answer to everything". Why would there be? Each individual question will have it's own answer somewhere along that line.

Rick Deckard said:
What next in this 'discussion' - Occam's Razor?

Occam's Razor is overrated, since it assumes we all work from a baseline of logic. Suppose you have a mental condition that impedes your brain's logic centers, what then? Even without going that far, what's logic to you could be nonsense to me. It doesn't wash.
 
Scientists don't 'know' anything when knowledge is defined as 'certainty' rather than what is, really, (fallible) induction from the evidence. Scientific method (in the 'physical sciences' at least) is one which allows for 'falsifiability' rather than a method for providing 'verifiability' in the strict sense. Those 'theories' which have not been falsified after many experiments are accepted 'as' correct (only an infinity of instances of repeated experimentation - a qualitative difference to just 'a [hell of a] lot' - could 'verify' them).:)

This is not a matter of 'denial' of science but being aware of what scientific method can and cannot 'do'.
 
If knowing (or certainty) can't happen, then us thinking we know that things can't be known (or certain), may be a misnomer and therefore we need to be unsure about our method in coming to know (and be certain) about what we can and cannot know (or be certain:).)

Kinda like the tiger trying to swallow itself by eating it's tail.

If one knows with certainty we can't know with certainty, that's a bit of a contradiction. Unless maybe knowing is contextual, which I think (not sure) it is.
 
If one knows with certainty we can't know with certainty, that's a bit of a contradiction.
Professor: "There are no absolutes."
Student: "Are you sure of that, sir?"
Professor: "Absolutely sure."
 
While it is true that a thoroughgoing epistemological denial of certainty can lead to absurd results in relation to the status of one's own statements about knowledge, can I point out that my post did not argue for such a denial at the general epistemological level.

To deny that experimental scientific method can deliver certainty is a meta-statement about science, which is of a different epistemological status to scientific statments derived from the use of the method, and involves no claim, necessarily, that all certainty is impossible (it just accepts that scientific laws, as extrapolations from finite series of events, cannot be 'verified' as certain but can, certainly, to the extent that they are stated as law-like events, be 'falsified').
 
lol - It can be, yes, but it is useful as a corrective to the all-inclusive claims made on behalf of experimental empirical 'science' - which is only one method of 'knowing' the world dictated by a specific 'technological human interest' : there are others:) .
 
Philosophy is the career choice for people who can't do anything useful.


Scientifically speaking, no knowledge is absolute. If one drops a brick one trillion times and observes that each time it is released, it falls to the floor, the only absolute is that it happened one trillion times.

One may conclude that it will again happen on drop # 1,000,000,000,001, but there is no absolute certainty that it will. The value of science is not in finding absolute proofs, but in testing a theory often enough and thoroughly enough that a conclusion can be reached beyond any reasonable doubt.

E.g., it is safe to assume that the brick will continue to fall each time it is released, and to use that conclusion as a basis for planning. While it is not absolutely certain that the brick will fall on test # one-trillion-and-one, it is logical to consider it foolish to lie on the floor with one's head below the brick.

<hr>
Back on track, it is impossible to know for certain that there are alien races "out there". We can only make assumptions and deal in probabilities. As I pointed out in post # 11, our method of detecting extrasolar planetary systems is severely limited.

One day we'll develop new or at least vastly improved observational technologies that can directly see planets in orbit around other stars. E.g., a string of telescopes placed in orbit around Earth, and operating as a single unit, would easily resolve Earth-sized planets around stars tens of light-years away.

A similar chain of scopes located in Earth's orbit around the sun would have the theoretical resolving power to see cities on planets in the M-31 galaxy, or to read newspaper headlines on planets of nearby stars.

The premise is based on the standard laws of optics. Resolution is primarily a function of the diameter of the light-collecting optics. Ergo large mirrors have better resolving power than small mirrors. The important factor is that the mirror need not be one huge chunk of glass. Smaller mirrors spread out and operating synchronously have the same resolving power as one large mirror.

For instance, the world's largest telescope mirror has a diameter of 27 feet. However, if one layed out a dozen 12" telescopes in an array that covers a 27-foot circle and operated them in sync, it would have essentially the same resolving power as the big one. The major difference would be the far lower light-gathering ability.

An operating example of the principle of arrays can be seen in this photo.

dsn67_med.jpg


This is the NRAO's Very Large Array of radiotelescopes in New Mexico. The array is equivalent in resolving power to a single dish the size of the array.

The principle is also seen in the Keck Observatory, which uses two telescopes separated by several hundred feet operating as a single scope for interferometric analyses. One of its tasks is looking for extrasolar planets.

The major challenge of an orbiting array would be the technology to synchronize the scopes so that the data can be processed to achieve the resolution.

By the time we develop the ability to launch such a prodigious system, we might very well achieve the ability to go to other stars and see for ourselves ... or be brought to them by others who come from there.

Again I say that Earth MAY be unique, but most likely it is not. I have no doubt that planetary systems are common, and that there are others who share creation with us. It's safe to assume that some are far advanced beyond us, and take for granted things that we deem impossible.

Yes, I do believe that we have been and are being visited. My objection is to the pseudoscientific piffle exemplified by the "channeled" crap linked to in the OP, the M-person's drivel, and other nonsense that one might almost attribute to disinformation.
 
CapnG said:
Occam's Razor is overrated, since it assumes we all work from a baseline of logic. Suppose you have a mental condition that impedes your brain's logic centers, what then? Even without going that far, what's logic to you could be nonsense to me. It doesn't wash.

I agree with you there - I'm sick of people quoting Occam's Razor at ufology - as far as I'm concerned, the simplest explanation is *not* necessarily the correct one and it also relies on a consensual definition of "simplest explanation" which can lead one (perhaps deliberately) to the wrong conclusion.
 
There are many kinds of scientists.
Most advance theories born of hypothesis, "proven" in real world terms.
Some dream up brand new answers to the same old questions.
We know "they" are here.
"They" have been here all along.
It's time we got acquainted.
 
Moshi Dayan said:
There are many kinds of scientists.
Most advance theories born of hypothesis, "proven" in real world terms.

Yes, but 'proven' in relation to the currently prevailing paradigm. There can, occasionally, be 'paradigm shifts', however:) .

BTW, in answer to the thread title : if they exist and they're coming here, then why not?
 
Has someone already offered the idea that maybe, just as we all have different opinions and theories, these 'aliens' might know things that we dont? What if they DO know some things that we don't because of what they have gone through, etc.? What if some 1000 years from now we find out that ::gasp:: the babble that we have been ranting about and deminishing to.. uhh "non fact" or whatever is real? It still wont matter, we wont be able to brag in 1000 years.

You can quote me and state your reasons for disagreeing but it wont do anything but make other people side with you. There is no fact involved in the text, fact is material. Materials are fun, horrible, annoying etc. but should have nothing to do with our relationships. You can show everyone that i should not be listened to, you can make it look like some idiot wrote the message that started this thread. Whatever you say can be thwarted by simple reason, but it doesn't make anything clearer. So please make me look bad, side with reason, side with God, side with Bill O'Rielly for all i care.

What matters in the end is what makes you feel free. Im still shaken from the argument that has taken place, but nothing got done. One came out stronger, in a material sense.

I believe that the text that started this was meant to inspire people to be comfortable with being and therefore with each other. Nothing more materially or otherwise.
 
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