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December 14, 2014 — George Hansen


Christopher O'Brien

Back in the Saddle Aginn
Staff member
What a pleasure it was to speak w/ one of my true heroes! One of my favorite episodes ever! George is a true seeker armed w/ a tremendous intellect and a unique, out-of-the-box, laser-like insight! I can't wait to hear what you all have to say about this show... :D
 
On this episode, George Hansen talked about the presence of trickster influence on the paranormal, but also mentioned, briefly, UFO abductions and thus opened some old wounds.

Feel free to talk about it here.

We also go into the subject on this week's episode of After The Paracast, available via a Paracast+ subscription. Check here for more details on subscribing: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
 
  • Refreshing to hear he hasn't succumbed to the quantum woo that has become fashionable for some purveyors of the paranormal.
  • Also refreshing to hear that he has skeptics in his "go to" group of advisors.
  • Ufology is not a paranormal subject, and unfortunately for Hansen, saying that it's that way whether ufologists "like it or not" is not a valid rationale, and I counter his assertion with the following reasoning:
According to Encarta World English Dictionary:

par·a·nor·mal [pèrr? náwrm’l] adjective
impossible to explain scientifically: unable to be explained or understood in terms of scientific knowledge
The core of ufology are the claims that aliens ( not necessarily ET ) along with their craft have been observed by members of our civilization, and although such claims haven't been proven scientifically ( yet ), they're certainly not "impossible to explain scientifically". For example, there is nothing unscientific about the possibility of intelligent alien species or interstellar travel. On the other hand, paranormal phenomena like reincarnation, precognition, and the supernatural are by definition unexplainable by natural laws, or are purely subjective non-material experiences, and therefore empirical evidence for them is impossible to obtain, and as a consequence it is impossible to explain them scientifically, and even if by some yet unknown mechanism they could be explained scientifically, they would no longer qualify as paranormal.
  • Great questions by our forum members!
  • I guess my question was too "tricksterish" for the show. It was a play on the title of Philip K. Dick's book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? The novel explores the issue of what it is to be human and what might separate humans from androids. The title alludes to the idea that certain experiences ( like dreaming ) might be unique to humans. Does the Trickster experience fall into this category? Is it a purely subjective phenomena or a phenomena that makes itself apparent only to humans? If so what might we conclude? Could it be nothing more mysterious than what goes on inside the workings of our own minds? I've not run across anything about the Trickster that isn't linked directly to some subjective human experience. In other words, unlike UFOs, it's not something with material physical properties that can be tracked on radar.
 
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I really enjoyed and appreciated this episode. I find the "hypothesis" presented to be very thought-provoking. However, I would have appreciated more detail and specificity. But perhaps those aren't available yet.

I'm thinking out loud in an effort to process, corrections/clarifications welcome:
  • Individual humans and human social groups are systems.
  • Systems seek stability.
  • However, humans and human societies go through periods of instability.
  • It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences.
  • While reported experiences typically appear different on the surface, there is an underlying structural similarity.
  • These experiences are not wholly internal, subjective experiences; there does appear to be an external, objective component to them. (But it may not be causal?)
  • This phenomenon has been noted since the dawn of human civilization; however, the manifestation of the experiences have changed as human culture has changed.
  • Historically, cultures have integrated/accepted these experiences via myth and ritual. (Are the ETH and Science the current myth and ritual?)
I'm not real clear on what is meant by the trickster phenomenon, but it seems that "a trick" is something that happens that may lead to instability of an individual or to a society. Perhaps these "tricks" are personified or assumed to have been performed by an agent, a trickster? Thus, individuals or groups of individuals that cause instability are considered to be tricksters. When tricksters cause systems to become unstable, people and groups often have unusual and/or paranormal experiences.

Now, I'm trying to rationalize something that perhaps can't be rationalized. Maybe the trick is on me, huh?

Anyhow, I'm fascinated by all of this, but in particular I wonder about 1) what underlying structural similarities there may be to current and historical paranormal experiences, and 2) what the nature of the external element to these experiences might be.

I'm also wondering about how information structures such as memes and archetypes might fit into this model, if at all. Information structures are substrate independent and flow through a variety of mediums; what role do they play in stabilizing and destabilizing individuals and societies? Once a meme or archetype has manifested, does it every truly disappear -- become extinct, or does it find ways to propagate and evolve?
 
I really enjoyed and appreciated this episode. I find the "hypothesis" presented to be very thought-provoking. However, I would have appreciated more detail and specificity. But perhaps those aren't available yet.

I'm thinking out loud in an effort to process, corrections/clarifications welcome:
  • Individual humans and human social groups are systems.
  • Systems seek stability.
  • However, humans and human societies go through periods of instability.
  • It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences.
  • While reported experiences typically appear different on the surface, there is an underlying structural similarity.
  • These experiences are not wholly internal, subjective experiences; there does appear to be an external, objective component to them. (But it may not be causal?)
  • This phenomenon has been noted since the dawn of human civilization; however, the manifestation of the experiences have changed as human culture has changed.
  • Historically, cultures have integrated/accepted these experiences via myth and ritual. (Are the ETH and Science the current myth and ritual?)
I'm not real clear on what is meant by the trickster phenomenon, but it seems that "a trick" is something that happens that may lead to instability of an individual or to a society. Perhaps these "tricks" are personified or assumed to have been performed by an agent, a trickster? Thus, individuals or groups of individuals that cause instability are considered to be tricksters. When tricksters cause systems to become unstable, people and groups often have unusual and/or paranormal experiences.

Now, I'm trying to rationalize something that perhaps can't be rationalized. Maybe the trick is on me, huh?

Anyhow, I'm fascinated by all of this, but in particular I wonder about 1) what underlying structural similarities there may be to current and historical paranormal experiences, and 2) what the nature of the external element to these experiences might be.

I'm also wondering about how information structures such as memes and archetypes might fit into this model, if at all. Information structures are substrate independent and flow through a variety of mediums; what role do they play in stabilizing and destabilizing individuals and societies? Once a meme or archetype has manifested, does it every truly disappear -- become extinct, or does it find ways to propagate and evolve?

You've asked some significant questions, Soupie, and I hope people who know more than I do about 'the paranormal' and especially "the trickster" will provide some answers.

Imo the term 'the paranormal' is too large and baggy a category to do much service. Too many different types of experiences are grouped under that term, e.g., ufo sightings and spiritual transformations.

I question this statement: "It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences." What is the evidence for this view? It seems to me that spiritual and mystical experiences, precognitive experiences, telepathic experiences, and reports of NDEs have been reported throughout the history of written human communication, in settled and peaceful circumstances as often as in periods of social or economic crisis.

I'm also wondering about how information structures such as memes and archetypes might fit into this model, if at all. Information structures are substrate independent and flow through a variety of mediums; what role do they play in stabilizing and destabilizing individuals and societies? Once a meme or archetype has manifested, does it every truly disappear -- become extinct, or does it find ways to propagate and evolve?

An excellent question, actually more than one. I don't think that "information structures are [all] substrate independent" since we produce so much structuring information in our interactions and expressions {think of cave and rock art}, in our development of societies and economies, in the design of our villages and cities, and in the various forms of our philosophies in different times and places. The deep informational structures that Deutsch and Marletto hope to discover as influencing what is 'possible' and 'impossible' in physics are indeed one kind of information that might be called 'substrate-independent', however, and it will be interesting to see the progress of their research. Jung has presented a strong case that archetypes are universal in human subconscious mentation, and their source is still a question to be answered. Memes, on the other hand, seem to arise and disappear in various places and times and to remain temporal cultural artefacts. Our species tendency toward herd behavior feeds into the propagation of memes, naturally since we are social animals. In our time, memes spread more quickly given the penetration of media- and advertising-sourced 'ideas' or 'notions' propagated daily to masses of people.
 
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Read the book, folks! ;-)

If I had a hard copy I'd send it to the first person who asked ... Many of the questions above are addressed with references.

There are also a number of other good interviews available online with Hansen - I think I posted several a while back I'll try to find.

If I understand Hansen correctly - he would find these words by Smullyan on the Tao very appropriate for the Trickster

c426301612ee504f4c22b12a0e10a0de.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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So religion is paranormal ?Then we have a lot of believers in the paranormal...

Take catholic belief...
Virgin Mary (abduction with impregnation ?) ... UFO that guides 3 magi, divine warnings, an angel !! Holy batman ! You've got everything in there. Bible is filled with wild stuff, including the Ezekiel encounter, Noah story... I'd call it the book of magic :)
As the Magi travel to Bethlehem, the star "goes before" them and leads them to a house where they find and adore Jesus. They present Jesus with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, in Matthew 2:9-11. In a dream, the magi receive a divine warning of Herod's intent to kill the Jesus, whom he sees as a rival. Consequently, they return to their own country without telling Herod where to find Jesus. An angel tells Joseph to flee with his family to Egypt. Meanwhile, Herod orders that all male children of Bethlehem under the age of two be killed, in the so-called "Massacre of the Innocents". Herod's statement in Matthew 2:16–18 referring to boys two years or younger, suggests that the Magi arrived in Bethlehem a number of months after the birth of Jesus.[48]

Not to mention a bunch of miracles that immortalize popes throughout history.

Miracle is an interesting word. Gap between the known and unknown? What is perceived by lower life forms from demonstrations by higher technological civilizations ?
  1. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
 
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  • Refreshing to hear he hasn't succumbed to the quantum woo that has become fashionable for some purveyors of the paranormal.
  • Also refreshing to hear that he has skeptics in his "go to" group of advisors.
  • Ufology is not a paranormal subject, and unfortunately for Hansen, saying that it's that way whether ufologists "like it or not" is not a valid rationale, and I counter his assertion with the following reasoning:
According to Encarta World English Dictionary:

par·a·nor·mal [pèrr? náwrm’l] adjective
impossible to explain scientifically: unable to be explained or understood in terms of scientific knowledge
The core of ufology are the claims that aliens ( not necessarily ET ) along with their craft have been observed by members of our civilization, and although such claims haven't been proven scientifically ( yet ), they're certainly not "impossible to explain scientifically". For example, there is nothing unscientific about the possibility of intelligent alien species or interstellar travel. On the other hand, paranormal phenomena like reincarnation, precognition, and the supernatural are by definition unexplainable by natural laws, or are purely subjective non-material experiences, and therefore empirical evidence for them is impossible to obtain, and as a consequence it is impossible to explain them scientifically, and even if by some yet unknown mechanism they could be explained scientifically, they would no longer qualify as paranormal.
  • Great questions by our forum members!
  • I guess my question was too "tricksterish" for the show. It was a play on the title of Philip K. Dick's book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? The novel explores the issue of what it is to be human and what might separate humans from androids. The title alludes to the idea that certain experiences ( like dreaming ) might be unique to humans. Does the Trickster experience fall into this category? Is it a purely subjective phenomena or a phenomena that makes itself apparent only to humans? If so what might we conclude? Could it be nothing more mysterious than what goes on inside the workings of our own minds? I've not run across anything about the Trickster that isn't linked directly to some subjective human experience. In other words, unlike UFOs, it's not something with material physical properties that can be tracked on radar.

Does the Trickster experience fall into this category? Is it a purely subjective phenomena or a phenomena that makes itself apparent only to humans? If so what might we conclude? Could it be nothing more mysterious than what goes on inside the workings of our own minds? I've not run across anything about the Trickster that isn't linked directly to some subjective human experience. In other words, unlike UFOs, it's not something with material physical properties that can be tracked on radar.

apply "?" or "!" as appropriate to the phrase below:

Read the book

or save time and just read this sentence:

Read the book? Read the book!

;-)
 
I really enjoyed and appreciated this episode. I find the "hypothesis" presented to be very thought-provoking. However, I would have appreciated more detail and specificity. But perhaps those aren't available yet.

I'm thinking out loud in an effort to process, corrections/clarifications welcome:
  • Individual humans and human social groups are systems.
  • Systems seek stability.
  • However, humans and human societies go through periods of instability.
  • It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences.
  • While reported experiences typically appear different on the surface, there is an underlying structural similarity.
  • These experiences are not wholly internal, subjective experiences; there does appear to be an external, objective component to them. (But it may not be causal?)
  • This phenomenon has been noted since the dawn of human civilization; however, the manifestation of the experiences have changed as human culture has changed.
  • Historically, cultures have integrated/accepted these experiences via myth and ritual. (Are the ETH and Science the current myth and ritual?)
I'm not real clear on what is meant by the trickster phenomenon, but it seems that "a trick" is something that happens that may lead to instability of an individual or to a society. Perhaps these "tricks" are personified or assumed to have been performed by an agent, a trickster? Thus, individuals or groups of individuals that cause instability are considered to be tricksters. When tricksters cause systems to become unstable, people and groups often have unusual and/or paranormal experiences.

Now, I'm trying to rationalize something that perhaps can't be rationalized. Maybe the trick is on me, huh?

Anyhow, I'm fascinated by all of this, but in particular I wonder about 1) what underlying structural similarities there may be to current and historical paranormal experiences, and 2) what the nature of the external element to these experiences might be.

I'm also wondering about how information structures such as memes and archetypes might fit into this model, if at all. Information structures are substrate independent and flow through a variety of mediums; what role do they play in stabilizing and destabilizing individuals and societies? Once a meme or archetype has manifested, does it every truly disappear -- become extinct, or does it find ways to propagate and evolve?

must ... try ... and ... use ... right ... hemisphere ...

I'm not real clear on what is meant by the trickster phenomenon, but it seems that "a trick" is something that happens that may lead to instability of an individual or to a society. Perhaps these "tricks" are personified or assumed to have been performed by an agent, a trickster? Thus, individuals or groups of individuals that cause instability are considered to be tricksters. When tricksters cause systems to become unstable, people and groups often have unusual and/or paranormal experiences.

yes ... Hansen talks a lot about the status of the Trickster in the book ... I do think he'd concur with the Tao quote above. (George are you listening?? - he's always listening)

Now, I'm trying to rationalize something that perhaps can't be rationalized. Maybe the trick is on me, huh?

YES!
Anyhow, I'm fascinated by all of this, but in particular I wonder about 1) what underlying structural similarities there may be to current and historical paranormal experiences, and 2) what the nature of the external element to these experiences might be.

Can you clarify? Are you asking for historical examples of the Trickster archetype as they appear in the paranormal?

I'm also wondering about how information structures such as memes and archetypes might fit into this model, if at all. Information structures are substrate independent and flow through a variety of mediums; what role do they play in stabilizing and destabilizing individuals and societies? Once a meme or archetype has manifested, does it every truly disappear -- become extinct, or does it find ways to propagate and evolve?

I think he covers this pretty well too ... Now I wish I had bought the hard copy to have here at hand!

I'll search the thread - I think back on C&P I where we discussed this ... did anyone else read the book? @Constance? I know we talked about it somewhere, didn't we?

Here is the annotated TOC - chpt 8 (Max Weber, charisma, etc) is available for download

Table of Contents, Annotated, The Trickster and the Paranormal
 
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  • Individual humans and human social groups are systems.
  • Systems seek stability.
  • However, humans and human societies go through periods of instability.
  • It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences.

Maybe we should look at the trickster as a thermostat/pressure release value. I think disorder is the natural state and as you mentioned societies by nature values order and having achieved a situation to is liking will fight change and to an extent will be able to hold it off for a time but something has to give and perhaps like a boiling pot, if the lid is on to tight it blows big time into something chaotic. Disorder will not be denied. Look how easy it is for things to be in a state of disorder, just do nothing and change will occur, as opposed to order which takes work and rigidity (?)

As far as the increased levels of paranormal events that come in on the heels of a chaotic trickster inspired event are in fact a sort of consequence of a trickster inspired event less than an intended effect.
 
Maybe we should look at the trickster as a thermostat/pressure release value. I think disorder is the natural state and as you mentioned societies by nature values order and having achieved a situation to is liking will fight change and to an extent will be able to hold it off for a time but something has to give and perhaps like a boiling pot, if the lid is on to tight it blows big time into something chaotic. Disorder will not be denied. Look how easy it is for things to be in a state of disorder, has opposed to order which takes work and rigidity (?)

As far as the increased levels of paranormal events that come in on the heels of a chaotic trickster inspired event are in fact a sort of consequence of a trickster inspired event less than an intended effect.

As far as the increased levels of paranormal events that come in on the heels of a chaotic trickster inspired event are in fact a sort of consequence of a trickster inspired event less than an intended effect

Doesn't Hansen discuss more how paranormal events follow destabilization of structures? He used fortune telling in Russia after the revolution as an example, I believe.
 
I'm sure there was discussion of preparations/precautions Hansen took before encounters with the Trickster ...

I think it applies to discussion thereof too ...

@ufology I believe you invoked the name of the Trickster back in the dewey days of our youth when we locked horns over ... well ,.. most anything ... but in this case I think the Trickster Itself ... do you recall?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well, I guess I was focusing on how he mentioned on the upsurge in INTEREST in the paranormal after the fall of the Berlin wall. He didn't put it into context but I wonder where did the interest derive from?

Was there an increase in events which drove the interest or was there an awakening of sorts where people just naturally made themselves more receptive to experiences outside our normal consciousness?

But now that i think about it, He did say there was an upsurge in ufo abductions. This is not an area in which i am well read on but in as much as ufo abductions (to me) may not be as much a nuts and bolts abduction but a hijacking of your conscious of sorts, I can't quite put together a scenario where a trickster inspired would necessarily trigger an influx of tangible ufo into our realm It doesn't seem likely to be a reason for the floodgates to open unless people were primed for it to happen and this probably made the enviornment more suitable for people to be abducted via their more open consciousness.


TBH I did read his book a few years back and a lot of things have since been forgotten. He may have touched on this I must regress. I guess it's safe to say if the trickster eliminates structure and boundries on a societal level than it does so not only a conscious level but an unconscious level.
 
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Well, I guess I was focusing on how he mentioned on the upsurge in INTEREST in the paranormal after the fall of the Berlin wall. He didn't put it into context but I wonder where did the interest derive from?

Was there an increase in events which drove the interest or was there an awakening of sorts where people just naturally made themselves more receptive to experiences outside our normal consciousness?

But now that i think about it, He did say there was an upsurge in ufo abductions. This is not an area in which i am well read on but in as much as ufo abductions (to me) may not be as much a nuts and bolts abduction but a hijacking of your conscious of sorts, I can't quite put together a scenario where a trickster inspired would necessarily trigger an influx of tangible ufo into our realm It doesn't seem likely to be a reason for the floodgates to open unless people were primed for it to happen and this probably made the enviornment more suitable for people to be abducted via their more open consciousness.


TBH I did read his book when it first came out and a lot of things have since been forgotten. He may have touched on this I must regress.

Ice tea ... I too must - or have, regressed since I read it and posted on the forum about it ... But I have retained a strong impression that it's a book I wouldn't want to discuss very much without re-reading it and having it at hand. It's well researched and carefully worded, with specific conclusions.

liminality was a key word ... ambiguity and reversal ... all forms of destructuring ... gender ambiguity, and the king of all weirdness "excrement eating ritual clowns" I believe I have that pretty close to ver bate 'em ... those are hard for our culture's default mindset to pin down and a lot of the book won't give satisfaction to this part of the mind ... but it will give answers ... the Trickster doesn't mind if they are rejected, I'd say it's rather counting on it, in fact.

so when I see all the questions about the ontological status of the Trickster, tangible manifestations and so on, I have to admire the author's tenacity in sticking to his guns while keeping his cards close to his vest ... which makes me wonder just how many hands he has ...
 
My apologies had i bothered to wait a few minutes I would have my answer. In my defense I run a pack and ship store and am up to my neck in work. When I get home I eat and then drop off to sleep so I haven't played the whole episode, mostly just in bits and pieces and I posted a little prematurely.
Sorry all.
 
Extracts from Hansen on Max Weber's insights:

"Another issue we will meet in future chapters is the reluctance to
examine foundations too closely. Existence of society requires collectively
held fundamental premises, beliefs, and assumptions. When they
are questionned or challenged, disruption ensues. Western science adheres
to the myth of objective reality, but it does not comprehend the
foundations of that myth. Rationalization (and our society generally)
presupposes the validity of Aristotelian logic, but that has severe limits.
One way to demonstrate them is through paradoxes generated by reflexivity.
Reflexivity is found in diverse areas, but there is a subtle and
pervasive avoidance of the topic. These should be central issues for
science and knowledge, and as I will show, the paranormal is fundamental
to them."


"Davis noted that 'Weber believed that the very progress
of civilization inevitably led to the permanent anesthetizing of the
human spirit.'
24

Hansen's chapter on Max Weber, available online at:

http://tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Chapter8-MaxWeberCharismaDisenchantment.pdf
 
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I question this statement: "It is during periods of relative instability that individual humans and human societies as a whole tend to report unusual (paranormal) experiences." What is the evidence for this view? It seems to me that spiritual and mystical experiences, precognitive experiences, telepathic experiences, and reports of NDEs have been reported throughout the history of written human communication, in settled and peaceful circumstances as often as in periods of social or economic crisis.
I cant personally verify the veracity of that statement but was simply recording my understanding of this concept. However, Hansen apparently does have much experience and knowledge of parapyschology and the paranormal and he makes this claim. Edit: Or perhaps he is claiming that the paranormal promotes instability, not vice versa.

I found the following review of his book incredibly helpful:

Tangling With the Trickster: Myth, Magic and the UFO. David Perkins | MAGONIA

In The Trickster and the Paranormal, George Hansen argues that science and reason can only go so far toward helping us understand UFOs and the paranormal. According to Hansen, the “correct understanding” of these realms has “massive implications for how we understand the world”. Here’s his thesis in a nutshell.

The supernatural, the paranormal, psi/psychic phenomena and UFOs are all associated with processes of destructuring. For the purposes of his argument, ghosts, Bigfoot, etc. are considered as categories of the paranormal. Animal mutilations and crop circles fall under the UFO rubric. The qualities of destructuring include: change, transition, disorder, marginality, the ephemeral and the blurring of boundaries.

Standing in opposition to these qualities are structure, order, routine, rigidity and clear demarcation. Drawing from the work of sociologist Max Weber, Hansen maintains that “for several thousand years, there has been a slow, progressive implementation of rational thought and organisation of society”. Weber called this “the iron cage of modernity”, and dubbed the process “rationalisation”. In our modern civilisation, academe, economic and political bureaucracies, the scientific establishment and organised religion have been the primary forces for rationalisation. This process necessarily requires the elimination of “magic” from the social structure in what Weber called “the disenchantment of the world”.

I don't think that "information structures are [all] substrate independent" since we produce so much structuring information in our interactions and expressions {think of cave and rock art}, in our development of societies and economies, in the design of our villages and cities, and in the various forms of our philosophies in different times and places.
Hm, a conversation for another time perhaps. I have much to learn about theories of information.

My thought was in regards to how information "structures" (such as concepts, ideas, archtypes, memes, stories, complex behaviors, and even personalities, etc.) can arise within and spread throughout and between various physical mediums whether its the substrate of life, the substrate of language, or the substrate of animal behavior.
 
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