Clifford Mahooty: Zuni Star Knowledge

Sure, we have all heard of the Hopi, but how much do you know about their ancient pueblo brothers the Zuni?
For the first time ever (to my knowledge) on broadcast radio, a Zuni elder has agreed to share Zuni ancient traditional knowledge as it relates to what we now know as UFOs and ETs. Clifford worked for the Department of Interior as chief engineer for civil works projects on US Indian reservations. He has studied UFOs for many years and has had some amazing sightings in his life. He is a rare bridge between ancient traditions and modern science and he has some very intriguing ideas to share with us. This will truly be an historic show not-to-be-missed!

Questions kind and gentle posters?

Hey people:
We are interviewing Cliff tomorrow so last chance to post questions about Pueblo Indian Star Knowledge or anything having to do w/ Native American belief and the paranormal.
This will be the first time a show like this has ever been done. This is a great opportunity to get your questions asked and the silence around here is deafening!

Here we go:

A lot of what I have heard as evidence regarding this topic comes from Native art. Having studied First Nations Art, I wonder why we need to turn to the paranormal to explain it? From all I've read on the subject, the more plausible and accepted theory around the interesting figures in the art is that they stem from myths and dreams. Such as the Mishipeshu which I brought up in another thread.
Why do we need to make the jump to ETs? Keep in mind that I have learned what I know about the topic from a professor that is First Nations (Timiskaming) so it isn't like I picked it up from wikipedia or something - I understand the artwork and nothing leads me to believe that it has to do with aliens.


I have a feeling I'll be shaking my head through most of this episode.

We got the question asked and answered (Angelo's also), but, as I write this, the episode is mostly done. Truly fascinating!

Was my question asked?

As I said, yes.

My name was not there when I asked. I swear! Damn trickster. Thanks.

We know what you are going to say before you say it.

We are so lucky to have Clifford agree to do the show. He did a great job covering a range of difficult subject areas. I hope the skeptical types realize the importance of what we did today interviewing Mahooty. To my knowledge, he is only one of a handful of real Native American elders that could possibly do a show about "Star People" traditional knowledge as it relates to the present day--plus provide an informed interpretation of "end of the fourth world prophesy." I think we made history as I think he was the first SW Native Elder to go on-the-record on a long-form media broadcast.It was a really interesting and fascinating show! He talked about his own UFO experiences, crypto-creatures, the cultural breakdown into clan, kachina, and medicine groups, etc I can't wait to hear the feedback.

I find this to be a rather curious "question" (Seemed more like a statement to me but whatever). You could be right that no aliens have ever visited Earth. That isn't the point. What I find curious is that you put so much faith into an academic telling you, "Ancient man wasn't depicting something they saw in their art. They were depicting something from their imaginations." What else are they going to say? Seriously, an academic could interview 10 of these people, be told by all 10 that their art represented something literal and physical, and the academic would conclude and teach the "from their imagination, folklore" viewpoint anyway. That there has never been visitation to Earth by extraterrestrials is viewed as an academic and scientific certainty. This isn't regarded by them as an open question. Therefor whatever they teach is going to be consistent with that. I mentioned 10 earlier but it could be 100 out of 100 tribesman guaranteeing that their art represents literal contact. That testimony means utterly 0 to the western academic or scientist. They are going to record into the textbooks what they consider to be consistent with reality. If the people they are writing about are arguing for a different interpretation they will simply be judged as foolish and ignored. Think about it, Angel, if western historians were told by the artists that they had been visted by space beings and that is what is being depicted in their art do you really believe those historians would write it up and then teach it that way? Hell no, they'll listen to the stories, giggle to themselves, and then write it up the way they think it happened. Heck, ya' see the same thing being done today over and over again.

Again, I am not arguing that ancient people were visited by ETs. I don't pretend to know. But I do know that if they were it sure as hell wouldn't be taught that way in universities.

As Clifford points out, these "interpretations" are mostly from anglo academics (and natives spouting the academic company line) --not from Native elders. Clifford is the rare exception who walks in both worlds. He is a scientist/engineer and also an elder of his clan, kachina and Medicine societies who has spent 40+ years analyzing his cultural heritage and dovetailing his intensive personal research with his own experiences. There is no substitute for experience--especially tempered by scientific knowledge. Read as many books as you want--listen to as many "experts" as you want--and it all boils down to your own crucible of experience. Tune in: Clifford does an admirable job addressing these many conundrums in this upcoming edition of the Paracast.

I specified that the professor that I learned that from was First Nations (ie Native American, in this case Canadian). So to address both Chris and Wickerman - this wasn't just some white old guy in a tweed jacket. The person that taught that class and answered my questions is a Timiskaming First Nations - she grew up in the culture and is an artist and art historian. Just because she doesn't think it was extra terrestrials or anything else paranormal does not make it wrong. Of course, since it's "spouting the academic company line" it's wrong.
Why does it have to be paranormal?

Of course though, as usual, paranormal is much more interesting than actual culture and art. I'll be curious to hear what he says.

And yes, it would be taught that way in universities because if you're teaching an art history class it's helpful to get the information from the experts and the artists.
Anyway, regardless of what I say, it won't be good enough for Chris since I don't like to use utter speculation to explain stuff and make it sound more interesting.

I never even said it was paranormal. I know almost nothing about the subject, admitted that from the start. I probably could know more if I read about it but the subject fails to interest me. The only point I was trying to make is that it really isn't going to matter to the academic community when it comes to claims of the paranormal. Tribal people could say they were visited by ETs, they could say they were not, or they could say every possible thing in between. Regardless of what they say I very much doubt that the academic community would embrace the idea of being visited by anything if that is what a specific group was claiming. My point was a philosophical one, not about specifics as I have no idea what the particulars of the claims of this specific group even are. Just pointing out that in my estimation if you had 3 out of 10 groups of people from antiquity claiming to have been visited by something extraordinary, or 5 out of 10, or 7 out of 10, or whatever, academia is likely going to conclude that 0 out of 10 actually were. So what's the point of mentioning what academia has to say about a specific one? That's going to be the final conclusion regardless of whom they're talking about or what those people believe.

As far as my beliefs on this subject go I really don't have any. Antique claims of the paranormal don't do it for me much (But then again all claims of the paranormal don't interest me much. My interest is in UFOs. When the Paracast is about Bigfoot, ghosts, prophecies, sea monsters, etc., I usually don't listen). The stories are so old that it's impossible to verify anything. You can't phone someone to ask them why they drew a particular thing. So the vast majority of my attention goes to modern accounts. I've read a few books about ancient UFO sightings and similar things but they could be counted on my fingers.