September 25, 2016 — Stanton T. Friedman and Kathleen Marden

[Goggs Mackay]

I don't agree gents, sorry. 43 minutes or so in (ATP version), with but a mere mention of MJ-12 and just the one repeat of the "put your hands up if you've seen a UFO" lecture anecdote at that point, the show was going along promisingly well: Menzel, Klass and Condon had all got decent airtime. "Okay," asks Gene, "So who are their successors?" Cue Stan to point-blank ignore the question and launch straight into the Zeta Reticuli/Betty & Barney Hill script. The show drifted at that point from its original billed content into familiar Friedmanesque shallows. As Randall (Ufology) says above, I thought Kathleen was similarly all over the place. Chris tried to pull things back on track towards the end by bringing in questions, but by then this show was rapidly running out of segments and runway. Time to fly this pair of guests off into the ufological sunset.

I respectfully disagree, although I do know where you are coming from. I'll give a 'for-instance'. I don't think I've heard Stan go into as much detail about the radar-roswell crash theory in the past. The way he sharpened up the theory to be more specific may have been mentioned by him elsewhere but I draw a blank on it. I also liked how he went into more detail about why skeptics such as Menzel and Klass, despite having died ages ago, might still be having an affect on contemporary astronomers etc.
But as expected there was plenty of stuff that wasn't new - I suppose I just expect it from Stan and just take whatever is fresh from him and forgive him the rest!

 

[Goggs Mackay]

As I said, a mere mention. Your question to Stan around the three-quarter-hour mark was an excellent one, i.e. who are the modern day successors to Klass et al. Have a listen again to his reply. He brushed it aside and went back to his regular script. The disappointing thing for me was that you didn't bring him back on to the topic in hand, which would have tested him, but let him get away with the subject change. We've heard star map a million times in various guises. This was a chance to get him talking about something different, out of his comfort zone and many listeners' zone of boredom, but it was lost. I have wondered in the past (and again this morning after listening to this), is there more to Stan himself in terms of the disinformation aspect? Was your question too close to home maybe? Just one to throw out there. Keep up the great work.

Wow! I think you might be the first person I know of to even throw out the idea that Stanton Friedman himself could be a govt. disinfo agent! In this crazy field, nothing should really surprise us and I personally put Greer and Basset in the same category. I don't think Stan probably is, but I like the fact you even brought it up - I really don't think I've ever heard someone say that..

@william Strathman - loved the point about aliens being behind some skeptics thoughts and actions - another new point to me, well done.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I think it was Randals question about how to build credibility into the field and Stan responded with (and I quote):

"Stick to the facts"

"Be careful what you say"

"Don't put your ideas out without any evidence to support them"

Meanwhile 10 minutes prior to this he put this idea out...

2 spaceships flew all the way to earth without a hitch before a radio wave caused them to fly into each other

DUDE! Your kind of breaking your own rules here

LOL

What you say has plenty of merit, no question. Some years ago, I sent off an email to Stanton, not really expecting to get a reply (it was about the mogul balloon explanation trotted out by the Air Force). Anyway, shortly enough after, I did receive a pretty respectably-long reply. We basically agreed on the same points.
Anyway, I have always struggled with this idea that 'advance beings' could master technology so well as to be inter-stellar, yet apparently be involved in so many crashes?

But I rationalise it by thinking that in Earth's space-going industry, we naturally assume that the engineers, researchers and scientists and technicians involved must be of the highest standard surely? Literally working at the pinnacle of human technology to date? But even our best efforts often fail, sometimes spectacularly, sometimes unluckily etc. A measurement in inches isn't converted to metric etc. If aliens are biological beings, isn't it just possible that they can make mistakes or that their tech is not infallible? Fans of Star-Trek never seem to condemn the shows for showing that even in a fictitious Earth future, even their best efforts sometimes fail terribly. Are we giving aliens (if ETH it is..) too much credit?

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

You cant rule anything out Goggs and maybe these beings are crashing.

The problem we have in any discussion about aliens is that we base all of our logic on a sample of 1 (humans). So when discussing aliens any effort to rule in or out possibilities is pointless.

So it comes down to a point of view. Mine is just that when it comes to finding a real explanation to Roswell the simplest one is the most likely.

In that sense we already know of a group who are flying around near military bases they are called the air force. They have a motivation to hide the truth when it comes to developing their new technologies and when new technologies are being tested they are known to fail.

This is much easier to believe versus the explanation of somewhere else in the universe or another dimension life evolved. In the enormity of the possibilities of life and it's appearances it ended up humanoid. It's civilisation developed far enough to master interstellar travel. It developed flying machines that resemble structured craft not too far in appearance from known military craft. They flew it to earth and found an army airforce base. At this point a radar beam caused it to malfunction and fly into another craft.

 

[marduk]

What you say has plenty of merit, no question. Some years ago, I sent off an email to Stanton, not really expecting to get a reply (it was about the mogul balloon explanation trotted out by the Air Force). Anyway, shortly enough after, I did receive a pretty respectably-long reply. We basically agreed on the same points.
Anyway, I have always struggled with this idea that 'advance beings' could master technology so well as to be inter-stellar, yet apparently be involved in so many crashes?

But I rationalise it by thinking that in Earth's space-going industry, we naturally assume that the engineers, researchers and scientists and technicians involved must be of the highest standard surely? Literally working at the pinnacle of human technology to date? But even our best efforts often fail, sometimes spectacularly, sometimes unluckily etc. A measurement in inches isn't converted to metric etc. If aliens are biological beings, isn't it just possible that they can make mistakes or that their tech is not infallible? Fans of Star-Trek never seem to condemn the shows for showing that even in a fictitious Earth future, even their best efforts sometimes fail terribly. Are we giving aliens (if ETH it is..) too much credit?

I tend to think the opposite, actually. The more complicated a machine, the higher the probability that it breaks.

Look at the F-35 death trap.

 

[Ezechiel]

Fun episode all in all.

My perception of their views and interrogations on this subject is as follows:

The resolution of the cosmic watergate would be an acknowledgment that our solar system falls under an alien jurisdiction (Stanton's quarantine of planet earth... UFO's at nuclear sites... ). A jurisdiction where humans are modified/molded (through abductions) to meet specifications compatible with an alien entity.

This alien intrusion is either a recent covert invasion (1947?) that could be executed through genetic manipulation using large scale abductions all over the planet (women all over the world flooding the native population with genetically altered babies... (Kathleen Marden ?)... or part of a very long term alien galactic seeding effort that created the human race 100,000 years ago.

Holding the lid on these explosive ideas is likely stuff like the 'Brookings report' which addressed the problematics around the potential discovery of alien life in the near future. But the extreme idea that alien life is closer to home and involved in farming activities on earth would definitely require the creation of entities such as MJ-12.

Since intelligent life might be discovered at any time via the radio telescope research presently under way...the consequences of such a discovery are presently unpredictably because or behaviour under even an approximation of such dramatic circumstances, two research areas can be recommended:

"...Continuing studies to determine emotional and intellectual understanding and attitudes and successive alterations of them if any -- regarding the possibility and consequence of discovering intelligent extraterrestrial life.

Historical and empirical studies of the behavior of peoples and their leaders when confronted with dramatic and unfamiliar events or social pressures. Such studies might help to provide programs for meeting and adjusting to the implications of such a discovery. Questions one might wish to answer by such studies would include: How might such information, under what circumstances, be presented to or withheld from the public for what ends? What might be the role of the discovering scientists and other decision makers regarding release of the fact of discovery?"

How do you factually disclose that an entire race of beings is not in control of its own destiny and that it's own sentience is possibly artificial ?

We're all part of an artificial cosmic community... and we can't do anything about it. How could any sentient race possibly catch up with a race 1 billion years older. Game over lol

 

[Wade]

I tend to think the opposite, actually. The more complicated a machine, the higher the probability that it breaks.

Look at the F-35 death trap.

I didn't listen to this broadcast yet but I was pretty much thinking the same thing. Although not improbable I suppose it's hard for me to fathom a biological being handling the forces involved with such rapid acceleration and I would favor a vessel and crew with A.I. capabilities.

Also I was wondering if a vessel was capable of anti gravitational propulsion system would this not involve creating a gravitational well around itself and if that were the case would it not suck in any nearby objects such as pursuing aircraft?

 

[Ezechiel]

I didn't listen to this broadcast yet but I was pretty much thinking the same thing. Although not improbable I suppose it's hard for me to fathom a biological being handling the forces involved with such rapid acceleration and I would favor a vessel and crew with A.I. capabilities.

Also I was wondering if a vessel was capable of anti gravitational propulsion system would this not involve creating a gravitational well around itself and if that were the case would it not suck in any nearby objects such as pursuing aircraft?

An alcubierre drive theoretically resolves that problem by locally expanding the space in the back of a craft and contracting space in front. You're not actually moving, you're rearranging the space around you.

Star Trek's Warp Drive Might Become A Reality

Fun to think about

 

[Goggs Mackay]

You cant rule anything out Goggs and maybe these beings are crashing.

The problem we have in any discussion about aliens is that we base all of our logic on a sample of 1 (humans). So when discussing aliens any effort to rule in or out possibilities is pointless.

So it comes down to a point of view. Mine is just that when it comes to finding a real explanation to Roswell the simplest one is the most likely.

In that sense we already know of a group who are flying around near military bases they are called the air force. They have a motivation to hide the truth when it comes to developing their new technologies and when new technologies are being tested they are known to fail.

This is much easier to believe versus the explanation of somewhere else in the universe or another dimension life evolved. In the enormity of the possibilities of life and it's appearances it ended up humanoid. It's civilisation developed far enough to master interstellar travel. It developed flying machines that resemble structured craft not too far in appearance from known military craft. They flew it to earth and found an army airforce base. At this point a radar beam caused it to malfunction and fly into another craft.

Yeah, we don't have much to go on in terms of hard evidence - I've always been a supporter of the 'Preponderance of Evidence' way of looking at it, along with the fact that many witnesses would be listened to in a court of law on the most serious of charges - when they are working, sober and not seeking publicity, we have to ask why so many reputable police officers, pilots, and people in other 'respectable professions' would ever risk their reputation and credibility in reporting things that mostly seem only to cause them hassle, not fortune or fame?

I'm also a believer in Occam's Razor (the simplest answer usually being the right answer basically) and I can't fault your reasoning in thinking any crash that is covered up, near the only nuclear-armed Air Force wing on the planet, is more likely to be secret test planes or planes carrying very dangerous and secret cargo - and at that time, atom bombs that could be dropped from planes were about the most secret thing on the planet that we know of.
I'm not going to bother stating the case for Roswell again! Except to say that I would have thought that by now, any secret tech that was rightly being concealed back then for security reasons, surely we are long past the classified nature being relevant and yet the official story has changed a few times, many documents have gone missing and I can't believe any commander of such an important base would bring such scrutiny by using such a daft cover story as a recovered flying disc?

As I said on a couple of shows back, I'm one of the many who are sick of discussing Roswell - not because it's a bad case, far from it, but as Chris so ably demonstrated, there are stacks of more contemporary and interesting cases that never, ever get discussed in the major Ufological forums, be they online or in person.

 

[Ezechiel]

As I said on a couple of shows back, I'm one of the many who are sick of discussing Roswell - not because it's a bad case, far from it, but as Chris so ably demonstrated, there are stacks of more contemporary and interesting cases that never, ever get discussed in the major Ufological forums, be they online or in person.

Absolutely, Roswell is like that machine in the american film Contact. It's the 18 hours of static that are interesting

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I didn't listen to this broadcast yet but I was pretty much thinking the same thing. Although not improbable I suppose it's hard for me to fathom a biological being handling the forces involved with such rapid acceleration and I would favor a vessel and crew with A.I. capabilities.

Also I was wondering if a vessel was capable of anti gravitational propulsion system would this not involve creating a gravitational well around itself and if that were the case would it not suck in any nearby objects such as pursuing aircraft?

Theories for intersteelar warp-drive are or can be totally different than theories for Earth-atmosphere anti-gravity propulsion I believe but don't quote me on that!
Anyway, @Wade, my understanding of physics and inertia in particular, tells me that simply the often-reported flight characteristics of some UFO's, namely the instant acceleration and right-angled turns, is enough to reason that the craft must have it's own local inertial field, and anything inside it is not affected by the same momentum/inertia rules outside of the craft. Forget even whether any pilots could be biological, I think that most craft construction, the 'airframe' and whatever delicate computers or control tech inside, even very advanced stuff, would still have a job staying in one piece and working correctly at near-instant accelerations. The g's pulled by something going hundreds or thousands of mph, that suddenly does a 90 deg turn, would be insane.
I reason that if the craft can survive those apparent g's, then it probably is not experiencing the forces our craft would. And if that is indeed the case, then anything inside, including biological life, would also be protected.

I'd point out that I believe we can discover some kind of anti-gravity drive to lift heavy loads without stacks of fuel but that isn't necessarily the same as what is reported, having a different local inertia - that may be associated with an even more advanced tech, or with only one 'type' of anti-gravity.

I have to say it, while unproven, I like Bob Lazar's explanations for what he claims he saw himself. Maybe one day he will be proven right..

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

Just because we are all sick of Roswell let's continue to talk about it....

It doesn't have to be tech they are covering up at Roswell it could be unethical practices that would still be damaging for the US e.g. It could have been a craft carrying a biological agent. Something like that may also explain strange looking bodies if the crew had been affected or deleted document records.

Ok... onto other cases

 

[Randall]

The thing about Roswell is that although bits and pieces of the story here and there are obviously far fetched extrapolations or outright hoaxes conjured up by con men ( like the Santilli autopsy video and Corso's claims, apparently helped along by Birnes, who some might suggest should end-up in the ufology hall of shame for his part. ); but I digress ...

Although there is a lot of noise around the Roswell Incident, something unusual did happen there. Exactly what, only a few people who were there at the time really knew, and they're gone. What about the death-bed confessions? What stuff about the original story has been debunked with a certainty beyond any reasonable doubt? The super hard memory metal for example? There was certainly a cover-up for something. I don't believe it was a weather balloon. I don't think the foil in the famous Ramey photo was part of the wreckage, and I don't believe it was a Project Mogul balloon either. Was it an alien craft? Possibly, but beyond that more substantial evidence is needed.

 

[marduk]

I didn't listen to this broadcast yet but I was pretty much thinking the same thing. Although not improbable I suppose it's hard for me to fathom a biological being handling the forces involved with such rapid acceleration and I would favor a vessel and crew with A.I. capabilities.

Also I was wondering if a vessel was capable of anti gravitational propulsion system would this not involve creating a gravitational well around itself and if that were the case would it not suck in any nearby objects such as pursuing aircraft?

Yup, it would, I would think. I mean, there's no such thing as a localized gravitational experience. Literally, when you jump, the universe wobbles a bit.

So if the anti-gravity works by projecting some kind of mass-field in front of the craft for it to fall into, it should radiate outwards spherically. So yes, stuff in front would get sucked towards you.

Unless there's some way of directing the gravitational field that doesn't show up in nature.

 

[marduk]

An alcubierre drive theoretically resolves that problem by locally expanding the space in the back of a craft and contracting space in front. You're not actually moving, you're rearranging the space around you.

Star Trek's Warp Drive Might Become A Reality

Fun to think about

The theory works great, as long as you can get your hands on exotic matter (that only exists in theory) which is capable of creating a negative energy density (which also only exists in theory).

In other words, you need a magic material to make the basic structure of the universe invert itself, then it works great!

 

[technomage]

Which episode is better, this one or the previous shop talk episode? I will listen to both, but I'm behind and can only pick one to download now.

 

[marduk]

The thing about Roswell is that although bits and pieces of the story here and there are obviously far fetched extrapolations or outright hoaxes conjured up by con men ( like the Santilli autopsy video and Corso's claims, apparently helped along by Birnes, who some might suggest should end-up in the ufology hall of shame for his part. ); but I digress ...

Although there is a lot of noise around the Roswell Incident, something unusual did happen there. Exactly what, only a few people who were there at the time really knew, and they're gone. What about the death-bed confessions? What stuff about the original story has been debunked with a certainty beyond any reasonable doubt? The super hard memory metal for example? There was certainly a cover-up for something. I don't believe it was a weather balloon. I don't think the foil in the famous Ramey photo was part of the wreckage, and I don't believe it was a Project Mogul balloon either. Was it an alien craft? Possibly, but beyond that more substantial evidence is needed.

Let's say Zeta Reticulan ET's crashed their scout ship because Uncle Stan's radar made it crash into one of their buddy's ships.

And let's say the nasty US government stashed the goods and covered it all up.

It's 2016. We're never gonna know, because they got whatever they could out of it and either stashed the wreckage, or destroyed it so it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. Or be an embarassment.

So it actually doesn't matter, because it leads us to the exact same logical place as if the whole thing was actually a mogul balloon:

It's not worth debating because it's effectively like argueing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

 

[marduk]

Which episode is better, this one or the previous shop talk episode? I will listen to both, but I'm behind and can only pick one to download now.

Shop talk.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Shop talk.

Stanton & Kathleen's episode; you'll only fall asleep listening to me take ages to make a single point....

 

[Standanista]

Shop talk by a country mile. Goggs is being modest, he's the star of the episode! (It's a great show, Goggs/Gene/Chris all on sparkling form.)