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November 29, 2015 — Kathleen Marden


Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
With such contentious debate about UFO abductions in recent weeks, I felt it would be a good time to bring on a guest with a more balanced view of the phenomenon. That's why we brought Kathleen Marden back. In this interview, she details some of the investigative techniques she uses, and she discusses the pitfalls of not following proper procedure. Her training includes forensic hypnosis, the same techniques used by law enforcement in their investigations.

We welcome your views.

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Kathleen appeared very level headed and more responsible in her practice than David Jacobs.
But man, that After the Paracast was gloomy. Just sayin'.
 
Kathleen appeared very level headed and more responsible in her practice than David Jacobs.
But man, that After the Paracast was gloomy. Just sayin'.
As Chris was saying, he was being a realist and I agree with him. The state of affairs on this planet is not looking very good and is only getting worse.
 
Yeah but I for one am skeptical about prescience so things could change completely or get better or yeah , get worse but who knows. Fight the fudge puppy or something. I just mean the future is wide open as far as I can see, but I'm far from ignorant of the crap but it's been crap for milennia or more so just do your part to make the world gooder. Every person gets down about the world then you rebound it's the way people are.
But if every ATP was this grim I'd be less happy because I like the Paracast its 2 1/2 hours of my week I enjoy things out of my normally nihilistic nature.:p
 
I liked the show. Learning about this stuff is why I love this show and it's the only show/podcast of any kind I listen to. It's fun with a weird f(?!ed up edge is serious minded about things when it's time to and that I find funny. I'm picky about things.
I learn a lot about a topic that's interested me my whole life I found it after sifting through a few search rows of the usual ufo/paranormal radio blah blah.
Looking forward to next Sunday.
 
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As a Christian listener it was interesting to hear Mrs Marden mention the spiritual side of the phenomenon. The fact that these things sometimes appear as demons or angles reinforces my belief that they are the fallen beings mentioned in the bible. As far as capturing an abduction on camera I think Chris was correct. Use a faraday cage or set up multiple cameras in the bedroom. I think the people doing the field work are hopelessly out of touch with current technology. Didn't Jacobs say he still uses a VCR with tapes? lol.
 
As a Christian listener it was interesting to hear Mrs Marden mention the spiritual side of the phenomenon. The fact that these things sometimes appear as demons or angles reinforces my belief that they are the fallen beings mentioned in the bible. As far as capturing an abduction on camera I think Chris was correct. Use a faraday cage or set up multiple cameras in the bedroom. I think the people doing the field work are hopelessly out of touch with current technology. Didn't Jacobs say he still uses a VCR with tapes? lol.

I haven't listened to the show yet, this is an area that i don't really immerse myself into but being that Kathleen gives lip service to an aspect of a phenomena that transcends little green men with probes and free transportation to a ship i guess i'll give it a go.

Having said all that before one gets into the logistics of using a Faraday cage and multiple cameras i would start off with something much more simplier. Perhaps just wire up and monitor the victims brain activity and sleep patterns. The thing is, you could go through all the hoopla of cages and cameras and possibly still not capture anything and that will still not deter people from their narratives if they really believe it happened, regardless of the amount of evidence. A weird image on a camera will be interpeted as an artifact. However perhaps monitoring this brain activity could lead into something more radical...if one can somehow scientifically dismiss the more likely reasons i.e. bad dreams hallucinations...and that is perhaps any reported sightings and visions are projected into our brains. If one can accept existing stories that such contacts at times involve telepathic communications it seems logical to accept the possibility of telepathic (non-tangible) visions as well.

It would be nice to see if there are people who submitted themselves to sleep studies within a lab and see if there are any accounts or variations of an abduction experience by someone who waived any rights on their accounts. These labs usually are monitored by cameras and people.
 
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I guess I am saying that to my knowledge there has never been any reports of an abduction within a sleep lab but I have to wonder if anyone has reported an abduction experience while undergoing such an experiment.
It would be interesting to be able to look at the lab data on any person that may have reported such. I am not suggesting a whole lab brought in. I guess I should listen to the show first to make any statements so I missed the context here but whatever the scenario was that was brought up in which it was mentioned a Faraday cage could be brought in along with cameras maybe just start off or at the very least include brain activity monitoring so that even if physical evidence is not forthcoming perhaps a workable theory could be determined by brain activity such as any unusual activity that occurs but not while in REM stage.
 
Who pays to monitor it that way? Wouldn't be cheap. And it would only work if the subject never leaves the bed.

Easy. The best most credible abductee could create a kickstarter. Minus the trolls and embarrassment some true believers would come forward.

I swear this field lacks action and brainstorming ideas. No wonder it's in the shape its in. It reminds me of this Life of Brian scene.

 
I would say that the one or two abduction cases that really have my attention are Travis Walton and maybe the Hill case. I tend to lean toward the idea that Aliens can't travil through wormholes or faster than light so I believe that If they ever do or did come here, it would be from a close by star at sub light speed. That hypothesis wouldn't support and "Earth Campaign" approach for me. I realize others of you here don't agree with that idea but it's just what I think.
My problem with "them" coming here to help us become better, kinder people is that I see absolutely no evidence of that happening. If anything , we have become less empathetic and less kind and less open-minded in general. Don't' get me wrong there has been progress but it's come at a big price. This world and this country have become a very divided place.
The biggest problem we have here on Earth is our propensity toward belief systems. Most wars and strife and problems in this world I have been due to that. I was in Walmart 2 days ago listening to a grandmother tell her grandchild that Santa would bring her the toy she was looking at. For generations and generations we have been preparing children to believe in things that aren't there. If aliens want to fix Us they should start with people who want to engage in "holy wars". "Dear people Zada Riticuli, please deprogram all the religious waccos first thank you." Humans seem to engage in less and less critical thinking these days. You only have to look at this political season to see that to be true. If this World is ever going to be saved we need to put down our emotional tendency to believe everything we hear and apply critical thinking and enlightenment.
I would Say this applies to UFOlogy as well.
 
I do not buy book on UFO abductees ever an few on UFO I'm very picky as far as I'm concerned science is God but I will be buying some of her books


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I would say that the one or two abduction cases that really have my attention are Travis Walton and maybe the Hill case.
Not sure how much of the "con" as opposed to the "pro" side to the Walton case you're aware of. Some concerns have been expressed in our short article here.
I tend to lean toward the idea that Aliens can't travil through wormholes or faster than light so I believe that If they ever do or did come here, it would be from a close by star at sub light speed. That hypothesis wouldn't support and "Earth Campaign" approach for me.
Makes sense to me. Can you elaborate a bit on the "Earth Campaign" theory?
I realize others of you here don't agree with that idea but it's just what I think.
My problem with "them" coming here to help us become better, kinder people is that I see absolutely no evidence of that happening. If anything , we have become less empathetic and less kind and less open-minded in general. Don't' get me wrong there has been progress but it's come at a big price. This world and this country have become a very divided place.
Also makes sense. Author William Bramley posits that an alien presence is a consistent factor in the history of human conflict. So for every claim about the alien's good intent there seems to be some completely opposite claim.
The biggest problem we have here on Earth is our propensity toward belief systems. Most wars and strife and problems in this world I have been due to that. I was in Walmart 2 days ago listening to a grandmother tell her grandchild that Santa would bring her the toy she was looking at. For generations and generations we have been preparing children to believe in things that aren't there. If aliens want to fix Us they should start with people who want to engage in "holy wars". "Dear people Zada Riticuli, please deprogram all the religious waccos first thank you." Humans seem to engage in less and less critical thinking these days. You only have to look at this political season to see that to be true. If this World is ever going to be saved we need to put down our emotional tendency to believe everything we hear and apply critical thinking and enlightenment.
I would Say this applies to UFOlogy as well.
Also makes sense. I'm a consistent advocate for critical thinking in ufology.

A very good post :) !
 
A very good show and thanks for asking my question :).

First I feel obligated to remind readers that Kathleen Marden mentioned Don Donderi, and that we had a discussion about him on another thread, where his uncanny resemblance to Don Cherry was noted (
link ).

But seriously, I'd like to emphasize here that I'm not suggesting that the evidence Kathleen mentioned isn't interesting or relevant. But it's not direct evidence, as in the example of a radar lock, where there is a real-time instrumented, physical detection of an alien presence taking place monitored by impartial trained specialists. I'm not sure why @Christopher O'Brien expressed some disagreement, but it was probably due to a lack of clarity on my part due to wanting to keep the question as simple as possible.

To elaborate, I'll go out on a limb and assume that the objection might be to such things as implants and trace evidence, which in the context described above, counts as after-the-fact evidence. It can be manufactured and presented later, or misdiagnosed or misremembered, even under hypnosis ( or as some would claim especially under hypnosis ). Consider the Bob White artifact. It is alleged trace evidence, but it is almost certainly a manmade artifact.

Anyway, instead of simply saying, "No we don't have evidence like that." what happened is that Kathleen went into all the other evidence, leading listeners to presume that the answer is "No". Again, it's not that I'm suggesting that the other evidence doesn't have some value, but I really was hoping that maybe there was something like that out there that we're unaware of, or that some project might be underway to gather such evidence. Some of this was covered during answers to other excellent questions by our forum members.

On another level, it was also interesting to hear Kathleen's reaction, because the way she came across was unquestionably in the defence of the reality of alien abduction as an objectively real phenomenon. Examples like the broken zipper and scraped shoes are objectively real, so the conclusion being drawn is that alien abduction must be objectively real as well. But that's a leap in logic. To others, broken zippers and scraped shoes might suggest other things besides alien abduction.

All that being said, I've always believed that something strange is going on with alien abduction claims, but exactly what, is hard to say. In the great misty cloud of data that Kathleen and other alien abductions researchers peer into, they see aliens abducting humans. Maybe they're right. After all, everything in my ufology studies and experience tells me alien visitation is real, so on that level, if we believe they're here, then at least alien abduction becomes a logical possibility.

Plus the one very important thing that is constantly overlooked or dismissed as valuable is that the truth isn't just "out there". It's also inside those who have had a genuine UFO experience, and Kathleen's work has been to explore that in some depth. From the way she responded, I got the sense from her that she believes some experiencers are relaying genuine and reasonably accurate accounts. If so, that is in and of itself refreshing.

I think we need more people who aren't afraid to be believers. But to be clear about this, that's not the same as endorsing blind faith. Working directly with people, especially at the depth Kathleen says she does, cannot be fairly dismissed by those who have never been in that position. Skeptics and their mockery have had the effect of making people fearful of believing. I think that's unfair.

For once I'd like to hear someone like Kathleeen say, "Admittedly. We don't have hard physical verifiable scientifically valid evidence, but dammit, I believe what this person says because I haven't been given any reason not to, they seem honest and credible, and as a trained specialist, I think I'm pretty good at telling what is and isn't worth taking seriously!"

Genuine experiencers need someone like that who believes in them, not just someone who wants to study them like lab rats, and to her credit, I got the sense from Kathleen that she understands this and has a genuine and constructive interest in the phenomenon. I'm looking forward to hearing more from her about her work in the future.

So sum up, great enthusiasm and some excellent questions and comments all 'round, especially by Chris on implants toward the end. So apart from some yellow flags, I haven't been exposed to anyone this promising in the abduction field since John Mack. Let's hope that trend continues and that we'll hear from her on the show again in the future.
 
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I was admittedly skeptical about this subject after having Dr. David Jacobs on the program, but Kathleen Marden really showed me the more legitimate side to this field of research. She has this research down to a science; one that gives hope to further discussion and discovery on the issue. Great show and I thank you for having Ms. Marden as a guest.
 
Makes sense to me. Can you elaborate a bit on the "Earth Campaign" theory?
Thanks for the Walton link. Interesting little article. By campaign I guess I mean this idea that aliens are coming and going on this regular basis. Even at the speed of light a trip from the nearest star would still be an eight year round trip. And if the trip time was a bit longer than that the idea of coming back-and-forth on a constant basis to this planet makes even less sense to me. But let's say for the sake of argument they can fold space or whatever and make the trip and I shorter time. Imagine the tremendous amount of resource and involvement using that kind of technology would involve just to kidnap a few people from their bedrooms. I have just never bought into the notion that aliens are coming here on this regular basis, and, if you believe what a lot of people seem to say it isn't just one race of aliens but multiple races of aliens coming here on a regular basis.
Truth be told the more I listen to the Paracast the more skeptical I have become about all of this. I feel as though I am left with many more questions than answers. A whole lot of people over the years have seen things and had experiences. As it turns out it seems, that people have seen things and had experiences throughout human history and I don't know what to make of that. I'm open to the idea that an alien race could come here or that they possibly have come here but, I believe that the difficulty in coming here even for an advanced race would involve either coming here by necessity or coming here in limited expeditions.
 
I always wondered if alien abductees arent experiencing some sort of epileptic ailment that isnt quite understood. Perhaps they are releasing some sort of chemical that causes an experience to seem alien and their mind fills in the blanks. I have read some research on Dmt experiencers who have a feeling of the presence of others under the influence of the drug and many of them believed that they were trying to convey important idealogy and technologys to them. They have been referred to as clock work elves by some. If this is the case it could explain fairy and other magical being encounters in the past perhaps even religous experiences. People would be most likely to fill in the blanks with ideas that are familiar to them than make up an experience whole cloth.

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I always wondered if alien abductees arent experiencing some sort of epileptic ailment that isnt quite understood. Perhaps they are releasing some sort of chemical that causes an experience to seem alien and their mind fills in the blanks. I have read some research on Dmt experiencers who have a feeling of the presence of others under the influence of the drug and many of them believed that they were trying to convey important idealogy and technologys to them. They have been referred to as clock work elves by some. If this is the case it could explain fairy and other magical being encounters in the past perhaps even religous experiences. People would be most likely to fill in the blanks with ideas that are familiar to them than make up an experience whole cloth.

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I totally agree I've often wondered the same type of thing. It's a fascinating phenomenon that it really deserves to be looked into. What makes people see things like demons and ghosts and aliens and the like. And by saying that I am definitely NOT suggesting that they aren't there it's possible that we live in such a strange little world that there are all kinds of weird things some people can see because they are "equipped" to do so. I've never seen any of it but I'm not about to tell people to their face "you're a liar"" because you didn't see something".
However, when people start talking about aliens then I have to say well, if there are indeed aliens what kind of aliens are we talking about? I can go all science-fiction and imagine all kinds of ultra exotic stuff or I can simply say to myself what if they're kind of like us? What are we going to be like as a species 100 years from now or 200+ years from now ? As fascinating the idea of aliens coming here is, I'm really beginning to become a little less interested in that and more interested in the idea that maybe WE should be the ones going out there. I'm becoming more and more fascinated with the notion that we are discovering planets going around other stars and even Earth-like planets and possibly on the verge of discovering alien technology in their neighborhood rather than ours. With the discovery of EM Drive we
may very well be at the dawn of interstellar space travel! I think someday there will be people out there talking about aliens and we're going to be The aliens they are talking about ;)
 
I totally agree I've often wondered the same type of thing. It's a fascinating phenomenon that it really deserves to be looked into. What makes people see things like demons and ghosts and aliens and the like. And by saying that I am definitely NOT suggesting that they aren't there it's possible that we live in such a strange little world that there are all kinds of weird things some people can see because they are "equipped" to do so. I've never seen any of it but I'm not about to tell people to their face "you're a liar"" because you didn't see something".
However, when people start talking about aliens then I have to say well, if there are indeed aliens what kind of aliens are we talking about? I can go all science-fiction and imagine all kinds of ultra exotic stuff or I can simply say to myself what if they're kind of like us? What are we going to be like as a species 100 years from now or 200+ years from now ? As fascinating the idea of aliens coming here is, I'm really beginning to become a little less interested in that and more interested in the idea that maybe WE should be the ones going out there. I'm becoming more and more fascinated with the notion that we are discovering planets going around other stars and even Earth-like planets and possibly on the verge of discovering alien technology in their neighborhood rather than ours. With the discovery of EM Drive we
may very well be at the dawn of interstellar space travel! I think someday there will be people out there talking about aliens and we're going to be The aliens they are talking about ;)
I dont doubt some people are experiencing something. These events seem pretty real to some of the people i have seen interviewed. It explains them passing lie detectors since they actually believe what they are saying but just believing something doesnt make it the whole truth. They way you interprete the events can vary wildly between people who have experienced the same events. Its like having multiple witnesses to a fight having wildly diffrent versions of the event or causing factors.

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Thanks for the Walton link. Interesting little article. By campaign I guess I mean this idea that aliens are coming and going on this regular basis. Even at the speed of light a trip from the nearest star would still be an eight year round trip. And if the trip time was a bit longer than that the idea of coming back-and-forth on a constant basis to this planet makes even less sense to me. But let's say for the sake of argument they can fold space or whatever and make the trip and I shorter time. Imagine the tremendous amount of resource and involvement using that kind of technology would involve just to kidnap a few people from their bedrooms. I have just never bought into the notion that aliens are coming here on this regular basis, and, if you believe what a lot of people seem to say it isn't just one race of aliens but multiple races of aliens coming here on a regular basis.
Truth be told the more I listen to the Paracast the more skeptical I have become about all of this. I feel as though I am left with many more questions than answers. A whole lot of people over the years have seen things and had experiences. As it turns out it seems, that people have seen things and had experiences throughout human history and I don't know what to make of that. I'm open to the idea that an alien race could come here or that they possibly have come here but, I believe that the difficulty in coming here even for an advanced race would involve either coming here by necessity or coming here in limited expeditions.

I like the way you think. It's nice to see some critical thinking and open mindedness at the same time. And being skeptical isn't a bad thing. If something can be debunked, it should be. My problem is with the deniers. I don't see you doing that. You're one of the few people besides myself who has mentioned that aliens don't need star gates or other exotic sci-fi propulsion systems to come here from one of the closest star systems. That's not to say that alien propulsion technology doesn't appear to be advanced. Obviously they're not working on any form of combustion, but that still doesn't mean we can assume they can go faster than light.

It's also normal as one delves into this, to end-up with more questions than answers. To deal with this, I've found it very helpful to divide the subject up in an objective library type fashion. For example under the general heading of Ufology Studies we can branch into two main categories 1. Ufology Culture ( interest groups, entertainment, and other social and cultural facets ) and 2. Formal Ufology ( sighting reports, investigations, and other aspects focusing on the phenomena itself ). These alone filter out a lot of the noise, and from there each is divided into it's own sub-topics, and covered from a historical perspective. This keeps the whole thing objective and gives one a place to store all the various questions that come to mind.

It seems to be the case that there is no Earth Campaign as you describe it. It seems to be more the case that we're of peripheral concern. Sure Earth is interesting, but their missions seem to involve a lot of clandestine study, like the way wildlife scientists build camouflaged enclosures to study their subjects with as little disruption to their environment as possible. They don't launch massive campaigns, but when they do their work and come and go, they use technology far beyond the comprehension of the species they are studying.

In our case, I think that their technology would be comprehensible, but we just haven't figured it out yet. I also think that the aliens know that their edge on us has grown smaller and smaller very fast, and that is why it's harder for them not to be detected, and why they are acting more elusive. One thing about their actions seems fairly certain, and that is that they are studying the planet, including us. Given that situation, it would be normal to keep direct knowledge of their involvement to a minimum so as not to skew the results. Plus, let's face it: Scientists studying polar bears don't exactly want them roaming around inside his or her dugout. A nice safe distance is preferable.
 
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