Near-Death Experiences Explained?

[smcder]

Well that was the contention by the Proof of Heaven infamous neurosurgeon OOBE that i referenced above. His claim has always been that his EEG produced results that made his personal experiences impossible to have taken place except in some altered OOBE reality.

But as a skeptical counter to his predicament:
"coma does not equate to “inactivation of the cerebral cortex” or “higher-order brain functions totally offline” or “neurons of [my] cortex stunned into complete inactivity”. These describe brain death, a one hundred percent lethal condition. …

We are not privy to his EEG records, but high alpha activity is common in coma. Also common is “flat” EEG. The EEG can appear flat even in the presence of high activity, when that activity is not synchronous. For example, the EEG flattens in regions involved in direct task processing. This phenomenon is known as event-related desynchronization (hundreds of references).

As is obvious to you, this is truth by authority. Neurosurgeons, however, are rarely well-trained in brain function. Dr. Alexander cuts brains; he does not appear to study them. “There is no scientific explanation for the fact that while my body lay in coma, my mind—my conscious, inner self—was alive and well. While the neurons of my cortex were stunned to complete inactivity by the bacteria that had attacked them, my brain-free consciousness …” True, science cannot explain brain-free consciousness. Of course, science cannot explain consciousness anyway. In this case, however, it would be parsimonious to reject the whole idea of consciousness in the absence of brain activity. Either his brain was active when he had these dreams, or they are a confabulation of whatever took place in his state of minimally conscious coma.

There are many reports of people remembering dream-like states while in medical coma. They lack consistency, of course, but there is nothing particularly unique in Dr. Alexander’s unfortunate episode."
from: Skeptic » Insight » “Proof of Heaven”?

If people can remember dreams from their comas, remember other humans talking to them etc. then we know that consciousness is a very robust platform with an ability to speculate about reality/circumstance and interpret it by feeding us back some helpful visual imagery for survival purposes.

If people can remember dreams from their comas, remember other humans talking to them etc. then we know that consciousness is a very robust platform with an ability to speculate about reality/circumstance and interpret it by feeding us back some helpful visual imagery for survival purposes.

By helpful visual imagery are you referring (at least in part) to dream images?

... a very robust platform ...

How did we talk about the mind before computers came along?

LOOP

ideas about the mind ----> computers ----> (analogy) ideas about the mind - (brain scans/etc made possible (and technology delimited by) computers)
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOOP

 

[Wade]

Go on ... try it, everyone else is doing it ... you know you want to ... first one is free.

;-)

People can use anything to escape - exercise and meditation, etc etc ... your dream life is rich and fulfilling - are hallucinogens just a curiosity, or do you think they would bring something not already present in your (rich and fulfilling) dream life?

TBH my only interest in hallucogens is with DMT and the reason that is the case because I've heard that w/many people part of the experience is some kind of contact interplay with a mantis being. I sort of have a connection with mantis (s) I don't know how strong my psyche is in the sense that I would have a bad trip but I know if I didn't meet my mantis brothers id be sorely disappointed and maybe keep trying till I met with success. At the same time i wonder if I want something THAT badly it might happen but would that be a cheat ? Do you think that by willing it so strongly this perverts the experience or would it just embellish it ? If in a dmt trip my results were the result of a self fulfilling fantasy is it bonafide ?

 

[Wade]

I think due to a series of recall dreams i used to have regarding an experience I had as a kid...a real insect mantis, not a humanoid one...i feel I have some unfinished business with the fellas.

 

[smcder]

I think due to a series of recall dreams i used to have regarding an experience I had as a kid...a real insect mantis, not a humanoid one...i feel I have some unfinished business with the fellas.

Have you tried techniques to induce a lucid dream with a mantis ... no more of a cheat than bringing a strong intention to an ayahuasca experience.

 

[smcder]

If people can remember dreams from their comas, remember other humans talking to them etc. then we know that consciousness is a very robust platform with an ability to speculate about reality/circumstance and interpret it by feeding us back some helpful visual imagery for survival purposes.

By helpful visual imagery are you referring (at least in part) to dream images?

... a very robust platform ...

How did we talk about the mind before computers came along?

LOOP

ideas about the mind ----> computers ----> (analogy) ideas about the mind - (brain scans/etc made possible (and technology delimited by) computers)
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOOP

Isn't my boredom with orthodox evolutionary explanations of everything in terms of survival and reproduction itself a result of evolutionary mechanisms? If relentless curiosity leads to discovery of some deeper underlying or even contradictory principle ...

I do think we make the mistake of deifying evolution in that it looks like a deterministic DxM. Chance plays a role, epigentics ...Gould saying if we rewound the tape we'd never get the same result. Gould's book "the spread of excellence" is a tonic.

 

[Wade]

Have you tried techniques to induce a lucid dream with a mantis ... no more of a cheat than bringing a strong intention to an ayahuasca experience.

Here's the thing steve, I used to have a recall dream over and over about this childhood experience which culminated in a series of sybchronicities with a mantis. after that the dreams stopped, but I do on occasion consciously recall the event from time to time as I read or hear something that triggers a memory of it. During the series of coincidences I experienced one of the events consisted of me accidently mortally wounding a mantis that resulted in a very strong emotional response (i came to tears) and to this day I still get chocked up about it.i say that without irony or fear of embarrassment. For something to effect me that profoundly tells me that this was no ordinary event. I was consumed with guilt yet after this, the dreams stopped so I question myself was this supposed to be closure ? It sure doesn't feel like it. Is there someone or something (even myself) telling me that we are finished here with the ending of the repeated dreams? But no, in answer to your question, I didn't even consider something as simple as this.

 

[smcder]

Here's the thing steve, I used to have a recall dream over and over about this childhood experience which culminated in a series of sybchronicities with a mantis. after that the dreams stopped, but I do on occasion consciously recall the event from time to time as I read or hear something that triggers a memory of it. During the series of coincidences I experienced one of the events consisted of me accidently mortally wounding a mantis that resulted in a very strong emotional response (i came to tears) and to this day I still get chocked up about it.i say that without irony or fear of embarrassment. For something to effect me that profoundly tells me that this was no ordinary event. I was consumed with guilt yet after this, the dreams stopped so I question myself was this supposed to be closure ? It sure doesn't feel like it. Is there someone or something (even myself) telling me that we are finished here with the ending of the repeated dreams? But no, in answer to your question, I didn't even consider something as simple as this.

If you can interpret this material in terms of its evolutionary value (survival and reproduction) ... let me know ... ;-) Now I will quit being a smart-alec and say this is very, very interesting ... there is a lot of material out there on inducing lucid dreams but my sense is that you are at a point where a strong intention is about all you would need. If you pursue this, I'd like to hear what happens if you feel like sharing.

 

[Constance]

"True, science cannot explain brain-free consciousness. Of course, science cannot explain consciousness anyway. In this case, however, it would be parsimonious to reject the whole idea of consciousness in the absence of brain activity. Either his brain was active when he had these dreams, or they are a confabulation of whatever took place in his state of minimally conscious coma."

Too simple and narrow an either/or. The individual quoted is able to take only a prosaic viewpoint on consciousness, while admitting, ironically, that consciousness cannot be "explained" by science. Like many sceptics he resorts to character assassination as the only way out of dealing with the complexity of consciousness demonstrated by psychical and paranormal research. Of course, he's probably blissfully unaware of that research.

 

[Constance]

Gould's book "the spread of excellence" is a tonic.

Thanks for that reference, Steve. I could use a tonic now.

 

[smcder]

Thanks for that reference, Steve. I could use a tonic now.

Gould's book is a tonic if you think you're being rigorous about orthodox Darwinism. I give him points for the idea of science and religion as non-overlapping magesteria ... points ... and his love of Bach.

I picked up a copy of Arvo Part's "The Passion of St John" composed in 1981 ... is there something in our modern narratives that can inspire this kind of music? Also Sprach Zarathustra ... Nietzsche a la (la la la) Strauss ...

Google (symphonies inspired by science) returned this:

Symphony No 3 "Universe" by Fazil Say ... haven't listened to it.

 

[Soupie]

How is the differentiated information about "type of person" carried in one neu?

Well scientists have already discovered how to directly transfer quantum information stored in an atom onto a particle of light. I believe Nature has learned how to do this with a particle smaller than a photon which is the neu or a form of neutrino.

Hm, storing a lifetime — or in this case several lifetimes — of experiences in a single particle seems difficult. So far as I've been able to find, scientists have only be able to encode — I believe — up to 3 bits of data in a photon using horizontal or vertical polarities, or both simultaneously. And although a single photon can carry up to 3 bits of info, it can only carry one at a time using this method.

I'd guess several lifetimes of experiences would amount to several terrabytes of data (and probably much more than that). Again, I'm not seeing how a single, physical particle could do so.

Furthermore, even if this neu particle were able to carry several terrabytes of data, there would still need to be something "reading" this data, just as DNA is read by RNA. Unless you're suggesting that the neu is able to make sense of the data it carries. That really puts strain on the idea that the neu is a single, physical particle.

Personally, I'm open to the idea that physical particles are "vessels" for information and consciousness, and that this information can be transferred to other vessels. I also imagine that there are quantum processes involved in all of this. However, I balk at the idea that a single particle could carry an entire mind as your model (and other panpsychist models) suggest.

Also, I don't follow your use of the term energy as you apply it to single particles and complex human behavior.

 

[Constance]

Gould's book is a tonic if you think you're being rigorous about orthodox Darwinism.

In fact that's never been a problem for me, and I find it even easier to see the shortcomings in Neo-Darwinism. Maybe I should have a gin and tonic instead.

 

[Soupie]

Gould's book is a tonic if you think you're being rigorous about orthodox Darwinism. I give him points for the idea of science and religion as non-overlapping magesteria ... points ... and his love of Bach.

I picked up a copy of Arvo Part's "The Passion of St John" composed in 1981 ... is there something in our modern narratives that can inspire this kind of music? Also Sprach Zarathustra ... Nietzsche a la (la la la) Strauss ...

Google (symphonies inspired by science) returned this:

Symphony No 3 "Universe" by Fazil Say ... haven't listened to it.

I haven't read this entire article yet, but I think it fits here:

The Shrinking World of Ideas - The Chronicle Review - The Chronicle of Higher Education

 

[smcder]

In fact that's never been a problem for me, and I find it even easier to see the shortcomings in Neo-Darwinism. Maybe I should have a gin and tonic instead.

I think there's a good drinking game in there somewhere ... ;-)

 

[Constance]

Here's the thing steve, I used to have a recall dream over and over about this childhood experience which culminated in a series of sybchronicities with a mantis. after that the dreams stopped, but I do on occasion consciously recall the event from time to time as I read or hear something that triggers a memory of it. During the series of coincidences I experienced one of the events consisted of me accidently mortally wounding a mantis that resulted in a very strong emotional response (i came to tears) and to this day I still get chocked up about it.i say that without irony or fear of embarrassment. For something to effect me that profoundly tells me that this was no ordinary event. I was consumed with guilt yet after this, the dreams stopped so I question myself was this supposed to be closure ? It sure doesn't feel like it. Is there someone or something (even myself) telling me that we are finished here with the ending of the repeated dreams? But no, in answer to your question, I didn't even consider something as simple as this.

I think your feeling of guilt (over inadvertently killing a mantis) and your subconscious fear of mantises since childhood originate in different parts of your conscious/subconscious selfhood -- why the dreams/nightmares involving mantises ceased after you'd killed one. But your sense of guilt about that accidental killing is a higher-order level of feeling based in your evident appreciation of the value of all natural creatures. It's possible that you might be able to alleviate that lingering sense of guilt (if it continues to bother you) by creating a terrarium in which you place one or two mantises and provide for their nutritional needs. You might get lucky and obtain a mantis of each sex and be able to observe their life cycle and reproduction, and when the young are grown up release them all back into nature. I don't think you 'should' feel guilty about the mantis inadvertently killed, but I understand the feeling. I always feel guilty about destroying insects in my house and only kill cockroaches. I let the little spiders carry on their harmless lives in the corners. Good luck.

 

[Constance]

I think there's a good drinking game in there somewhere ... ;-)

Whatever helps, so long as it harms no one else.

 

[Soupie]

Here's the thing steve, I used to have a recall dream over and over about this childhood experience which culminated in a series of sybchronicities with a mantis. after that the dreams stopped, but I do on occasion consciously recall the event from time to time as I read or hear something that triggers a memory of it. During the series of coincidences I experienced one of the events consisted of me accidently mortally wounding a mantis that resulted in a very strong emotional response (i came to tears) and to this day I still get chocked up about it.i say that without irony or fear of embarrassment. For something to effect me that profoundly tells me that this was no ordinary event. I was consumed with guilt yet after this, the dreams stopped so I question myself was this supposed to be closure ? It sure doesn't feel like it. Is there someone or something (even myself) telling me that we are finished here with the ending of the repeated dreams? But no, in answer to your question, I didn't even consider something as simple as this.

Excellent. What meaning do you make of it? What was happening in your life when the dreams began, I wonder?

I've only ever had one repeating dream in my life, and it was when I was very young, no more than 5-6 years old. I had the dream several times over a series of nights. Keep in mind that I was likely 4, 5, or 6 years old. Also, my parents were very conservative.

In the dream, I was a large, strong Beowulf-type man. (I've always thought of the man as a barbarian, but as I write this, Beowulf is more accurate.) I was in what can only be described as a mead hall. In the past, I've always thought of it as a bar or restaurant, but mead hall is exactly what it was.

The building was wide and squat. The walls and ceiling made of large, sand-colored slabs of rock. (Not sure if that fits with mead hall description.) Inside was a single room with stone tables and other similar men drinking beer. I always knew it was beer (or mead?) even though at 4-6 years old I had never seen beer or didn't even had the concept in my mind.

After a few minutes, the man (or I) would ubruptly stand up from the table and walk outside. The building was right next to a mountain that rose vertically off-scene as it was so high.

I would walk a few feet out of the building and stand beneath the "cliff." I had a circular shield that I would raise above my head, and several boulders would fall down and crush me. And that was it.

I would say I had this same pretty exact dream at least 5 times.

 

[Wade]

I think your feeling of guilt (over inadvertently killing a mantis) and your subconscious fear of mantises since childhood originate in different parts of your conscious/subconscious selfhood -- why the dreams/nightmares involving mantises ceased after you'd killed one. But your sense of guilt about that accidental killing is a higher-order level of feeling based in your evident appreciation of the value of all natural creatures.

I probably should have been more detailed. I don't have a childhood fear of them, quite the opposite. I have in the my personal experiences forum a 7-8 page .doc (file) detailing the whole shebang. I tried to be as detailed and concise as i could be. But just to reiterate, the childhood experience was quite fascinating to me, as while i was distracted I found one perched on my knee one time and after getting over my initial "shock" of seeing a vicious looking bug...i was old enough to know what it was..i felt a bit of a kinship with it, hence my distraught and anger with myself (and it) over my killing a subsequent mantis some 40 years later. I truly felt as if I ran over my dog and to this day I still am flummoxed over my strong feelings about it.At least consciously.

 

[Wade]

I was just as angry with the mantis for putting itself in harms way, at least to my mind it did, this sounds a little confusing I will copy and paste the full details of the event in question.

 

[Wade]

Excellent. What meaning do you make of it? What was happening in your life when the dreams began, I wonder?

I've only ever had one repeating dream in my life, and it was when I was very young, no more than 5-6 years old. I had the dream several times over a series of nights. Keep in mind that I was likely 4, 5, or 6 years old. Also, my parents were very conservative.

In the dream, I was a large, strong Beowulf-type man. (I've always thought of the man as a barbarian, but as I write this, Beowulf is more accurate.) I was in what can only be described as a mead hall. In the past, I've always thought of it as a bar or restaurant, but mead hall is exactly what it was.

The building was wide and squat. The walls and ceiling made of large, sand-colored slabs of rock. (Not sure if that fits with mead hall description.) Inside was a single room with stone tables and other similar men drinking beer. I always knew it was beer (or mead?) even though at 4-6 years old I had never seen beer or didn't even had the concept in my mind.

After a few minutes, the man (or I) would ubruptly stand up from the table and walk outside. The building was right next to a mountain that rose vertically off-scene as it was so high.

I would walk a few feet out of the building and stand beneath the "cliff." I had a circular shield that I would raise above my head, and several boulders would fall down and crush me. And that was it.

I would say I had this same pretty exact dream at least 5 times.

I have a list of what I call "themes", that is repetitive particulars within my dreams a country mile long. Outside the repetitive mantis dreams, where I would replay the interaction I had over 40 years ago (at the time) I don't have repetitive dreams per say but in the act of writing them down...I can be pretty detailed...I find myself writing about an aspect or action within the dream that is pretty minor in that it had little to do with the dream as a whole but I'll find myself writing it down and then thinking "SonaBitch, there it is again" Train stations, tunnels, long narrow ramps descending into darkness, escalators, stairs that by pass the floor I want and I have to go out of my way to get to the right one, freeway on ramps offramps, suburban shopping malls at night, empty and off the interstate, empty construction sites, catwalks, quinoset huts. The list is pretty impressive. These are what I focus on instead of the actual dream. Very crowded communal living, usually in the context of a unclean enviornment, The obligatory flying dream, but with me it's usual fits and false starts, like a gooney bird trying to get airborne and when I finally do get aloft it is not for very long. Running along trails and trying to keep my footing, I'll be running so fast my momentum propels me off the track and I'll fight to stay on, frequently within these dreams I'll tell myself "Hey, I've been here before and know what comes next. I (rightly or wrongly ) interpet this as being lucid because it's like I'm directing my dream, up to a few months ago I would tell myself within the dream "Wade, you may want to remember this when you wake up." Truly, no lie. I haven't done this in sometime but usually I do recall a great part of them after a few minutes of grogginess and a little bit of concentration. But if i concentrate too hard I lose focus (sounds paradoxical I know) and inevitably forget so I just relax and it pretty much always comes back.

Given that you can understand why I consider my dream life a gift.