Robert Salas, October 12, 2014

[wwkirk]

I have no doubts about Robert's experience of the missile shutdown. But apart from that, he seemed to lean too heavily upon received opinion. Especially regarding his abduction experience; there are too many red flags.

I think the hosts handled him well, however. You pointed out where the controversy lay, but let him speak his piece.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

He is inclined to accept a bit too much.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

When he got into his hypnosis, Chris asked the exact question as it was forming in my mind, regarding the hypnotists having prior experience with the UFO subject or not. *instant gratification*

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Alas they did and that presents a problem.

 

[callmesnake]

a rare misstep in paracast's recent run.

i find Robert Salas to offer little to no insight into the subject whatsoever.

would have to be one of the dullest interviewees i imagine.

Stick me in a room with him and Bruce macabee and I'd be begging for abduction.


sorry.

 

[boomerang]

I see the Salas interview as akin to the maddening UFO enigma in a nutshell. We have in Salas, and more widely in the Malmstrom incident, highly credible witnesses whose testimony in relating high strangeness events seems at first to dovetail nicely with time honored methods of analysis. Salas then proceeds to slowly but surely stretch our suspension of disbelief with ever more convoluted alien encounter scenarios until we cannot help but back off and wonder--yet again--what the hell is going at the witness/event interface. The story even comes complete with the obligatory revelation by means of regression hypnosis.

But herein is the message: Not only is this pattern nothing new, it lies close to the core of the history of UFOlogy since 1947. Shades of Jim Penniston and his belated binary code revelations ! The trickster strikes again.

Honestly, I enjoyed listening to Salas for this very reason. There is something going on here much more vast and much stranger than ET critters buzzing our nukes.

 

[captainrecovery]

How many Penniston's, Salas's, Weiner twins, et al have one legitimate sounding experience, find themselves in the spotlight and start fabricating further or more detailed stories in an attempt to retain the fame? Travis Walton is one of the few whose story never changed.

 

[Polterwurst]

Honestly, I enjoyed listening to Salas for this very reason. There is something going on here much more vast and much stranger than ET critters buzzing our nukes.

I'm beginning to wonder about that, too. Once more I was like "what the heck is going on" after the interview.

Mr Salas just doesn't seem the uncritical believer / superficial thinker type to me. Everything about him says "principled", "truth", "honesty" and "'Here I stand and can do no other,'". I can't believe for a second that he's making any of it up or trying to make a buck by telling tall stories.

Which leaves me with only one alternative: the things he experienced himself have convinced him that nothing is impossible. Even the wildest stories might be true. Which probably turned his world-view on its head just a little bit. And being the down-to-earth guy he is, he might have decided to choose "the lesser evil", that is, the "friendly ET" hypothesis, because it seems to be the least complicated and far-fetched one. After all, it's the one most people in this field are talking about.

But of course there is the fact that the onset of his abduction experience sounds a lot like sleep paralysis. And a hooded shadow figure sounds like a "shadow person" which is allegedly encoutered in haunting type cases, not in alien abductions.

I'm not saying that it was all "just in his mind" or "just the old hag". I've had several sleep paralysis events but not once have I seen anything that looked like an outside entity, an old hag, hooded shadow or alien grey wielding a nasty syringe . Even after years of looking into weird stuff, watching SciFi and Horror movies and reading about stuff like UFOs and aliens, I've never ever had any hypnagpgic experience like that.

If it's to do with sleep paralysis, why would these people have such ongoing and detailed experiences in this state? And why are they so convinced that these are actual entities, seperate from their own consciousness? To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if these are indeed "psychic" intrusions from outside. Maybe discarnate consciousness, spirits or whatever.

@Mr Salas: I apologize for my question regarding Clifford Stone sounding like I wanted to offend you. That was not my intention and I realized the aggressive tone of it only when it was asked. I only wanted to state my doubts and hear what you'd make of them.

Thanks, Chris, for asking my questions.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I'm beginning to wonder about that, too. Once more I was like "what the heck is going on" after the interview.

Mr Salas just doesn't seem the uncritical believer / superficial thinker type to me. Everything about him says "principled", "truth", "honesty" and "'Here I stand and can do no other,'". I can't believe for a second that he's making any of it up or trying to make a buck by telling tall stories.

Which leaves me with only one alternative: the things he experienced himself have convinced him that nothing is impossible. Even the wildest stories might be true. Which probably turned his world-view on its head just a little bit. And being the down-to-earth guy he is, he might have decided to choose "the lesser evil", that is, the "friendly ET" hypothesis, because it seems to be the least complicated and far-fetched one. After all, it's the one most people in this field are talking about.

But of course there is the fact that the onset of his abduction experience sounds a lot like sleep paralysis. And a hooded shadow figure sounds like a "shadow person" which is allegedly encoutered in haunting type cases, not in alien abductions.

I'm not saying that it was all "just in his mind" or "just the old hag". I've had several sleep paralysis events but not once have I seen anything that looked like an outside entity, an old hag, hooded shadow or alien grey wielding a nasty syringe . Even after years of looking into weird stuff, watching SciFi and Horror movies and reading about stuff like UFOs and aliens, I've never ever had any hypnagpgic experience like that.

If it's to do with sleep paralysis, why would these people have such ongoing and detailed experiences in this state? And why are they so convinced that these are actual entities, seperate from their own consciousness? To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if these are indeed "psychic" intrusions from outside. Maybe discarnate consciousness, spirits or whatever.

@Mr Salas: I apologize for my question regarding Clifford Stone sounding like I wanted to offend you. That was not my intention and I realized the aggressive tone of it only when it was asked. I only wanted to state my doubts and hear what you'd make of them.

Thanks, Chris, for asking my questions.

For me, all this, and precisely this, most including the nature of high strangeness events themselves as they intermesh with period relevant reliability stances and aspects, serve to reinforce and emphasize the need for the dismantling of the UFO/Alien folklore this period has become saturated with. The real environmental medium here, the real and only interfacial possibility, is bound to our own relationship limitations in which these experiences can take place. Namely the environment of our consciousness, and certainly not physical space. Is it not awareness itself that made possible the shutting down of the greatest technological advantage in might that we could exemplify? To whom, and to only whom, was this "shut down" relevant? They move into, and out of, our temporally defined basin of reality, like we would move into, and out of, the Earth's oceans. I think greys are an ultra terrestrial initiated quasi virtual language based environmental consciousness program. UFOs message humankind via observation, whereas these greys are consciousness programs used to message humankind's individual psyche and thereby more so greatly influence humanity in a direct sense.

Call it what you like, but IMO, Keel was a lot closer to the truth with respect for the nature of this environment of consciousness than were the sci fi crowd born of pulp inspired pseudo speculative prophecies. If you look at it in as absurd and strange a light as is possible, when the game is in full swing with all the pieces on the table, you are most likely far closer to a truth apart from what we could imagine it to be based on our own relevant limitations.

It's interesting to note that men of considerable scientific stature (the invisible college for one) have considered and adopted very similar stances with respect to this ongoing, seemingly projectionary, iconic messaging.

 

[Polterwurst]

Still, it's only another speculation that could be as wrong or right as the "physical ET" one. I can't say if Keel might have been on to something or just speculating because I actually haven't read any of his books yet (I know, big gap in paranormal education there).

Judging from the way my observations turned my worldview on its head, though, I think I can explain why credible people like Salas or, say, Paul Hellyer might find it difficult to draw a line and somewhere along the way decided that "nothing's impossible any more, but ET is the most tangible explanation, so I'll go with that".

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

C. G. Jung stopped just short, in his book Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky, of saying the UFO is a (non-physical) shared delusion. A misplaced expression of something else we feel is missing from out lives. God, maybe.
However he decided that explanation didn't cover it, as delusions do not appear on Radar screens...
Unless you care to entertain the Buddhist concept of the Thulpa (sp?).
A solidly physical thought form, created and projected by the percipient's mind.
Keel was into the Garuda (Hindu, I think) so he may have had something like the hypothetical Thulpa in mind when constructing his "ultra terrestrial" concepts.
Mind you, we're talking Psychology in its infancy, Eastern mysticism, and John Keel's more hypothetical stuff here, so buyer beware; and take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

There are other theories out there that fit the known terrain better, I think, than Keel's ultimately unreliable "reporting." His theorizing is no more reality-based than his reporting, in my opinion. I know this will upset some of the Keel fans here, but Hynek and Vallee had a working theory of interdimensional travel pretty well framed up in the Sixties. A craft or entity visiting us from another dimension (in the most commonly held sense of that idea) might exhibit characteristics and abilities that are not normal here or even on the "home world" of the visitor. What we perceive then would be an interpretation or adaptation because the visitor's true form would not be perceptible to us. What we see violating our laws of physics would then be neither fish nor fowl. I'm not saying this is the solution to the whole UFO question, but it does look to me like a better hypothesis to ponder than the usual stuff. For me, it's the biggest "tent" that makes any sense.

 

[Ezechiel]

Robert Salas, Clifford Stone, Robert Dean: 'The Brotherhood'

Personal unique paranormal experiences are forcing these eloquent and intelligent ex-military into seemingly mad conclusions. The 'brotherhood' has rationally concluded, through paranormal experience, that planet earth has been interacting with multiple external civilizations probably since the development of the human race. Robert Salas has decided that this is not a theory and that it fully supports his interpretation of the Malmstrom event along with the alien intent he's tagged to it. Some external entities have a vested interest in planet earth and have decided that it will be protected when faced with the potential of ultimate destruction.

From that point on you either believe them or you don't. The above YouTube video shows how that parallel universe is structured according to Robert Dean and Clifford Stone. It's wild as heck and insinuates that some earthly rogue states (Iran, NK...) are dealing with different ET races than the US.

Is this a case where a paranormal experience will send you to the loony bin or is it simply a unique opportunity to cash in on lucrative book deals ? If its anything in between then we're all in for some interesting times as we are forced to believe in some of the wild stuff

I'd compare this interview with the 18 hours of static recorded by Ellie Arroway in the movie Contact. You only have the experiencer's word for the big picture and a bunch of static as evidence. Explaining the 18 hours is the fun part... Hopefully a Contact II is on the way !

 

[Jeff Davis]

There are other theories out there that fit the known terrain better, I think, than Keel's ultimately unreliable "reporting." His theorizing is no more reality-based than his reporting, in my opinion. I know this will upset some of the Keel fans here, but Hynek and Vallee had a working theory of interdimensional travel pretty well framed up in the Sixties. A craft or entity visiting us from another dimension (in the most commonly held sense of that idea) might exhibit characteristics and abilities that are not normal here or even on the "home world" of the visitor. What we perceive then would be an interpretation or adaptation because the visitor's true form would not be perceptible to us. What we see violating our laws of physics would then be neither fish nor fowl. I'm not saying this is the solution to the whole UFO question, but it does look to me like a better hypothesis to ponder than the usual stuff. For me, it's the biggest "tent" that makes any sense.

I think that Keel is extremely misunderstood, and more exactly, misrepresented. A great deal of what he claimed is precisely what you claim in the emboldened above. It's where reasoning like you put forth here came from originally. People like to resent Keel based on his happenstance notoriety and subsequent monetary success with respect to "Mothman". A term that he himself didn't even invent. I have yet to find much substantiation for Keel's "unreliability". Can you provide this "working interdimensional theory" with respect to what current physicists claim with respect to these dimensions? It's interesting to note that Vallee himself now supports consciousness as being more so relevant to UFO research as opposed to dimensions. Keel was in fact extremely scientific with respect to what he theorized concerning that which possibly existed beyond the electromagnetic spectrum. Admittedly what he contended stopped well short of a "working theory" but I for one have just never found real evidence, apart from factional UFO fandom's unsubstantiated opinions, that Keel was in fact a hoaxer or a liar. Possibly, and certainly not anything short of speculatively, the real short coming on behalf of John Keel was his physical temporal demise short of connecting his ultra terrestrial concepts to matters more so situated within the speculative realms of theoretical quantum physics and it's appropriate ties to consciousness studies.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

I knew this would happen.

Much of what Keel claimed in things like Mothman relies solely on his own statements. That's true of his earlier book, don't recall the title and I'm not going to look. Jadoo or something, I think. A lot of it sounds like tall tales and as I recall it was considered to be just that. Loren Coleman said in a Paracast interview that the original reports from Point Pleasant involved what sounded like a very large owl. It's not hard to imagine something like that getting out of hand quickly. I've always thought Keel's Mothman chronicle was a lot like Whitley Strieber's work. Probably based on something real, but come on. As much fun as the creepy Indrid Cold character is, I have a hard time buying all of the things he supposedly did. That's not to say I don't enjoy a lot of Keel's work. I just don't see him as the visionary genius he is often said to have been.

If you can find a copy of the first edition of Vallee's Forbidden Science, it is well worth reading. The second edition is, too, but it's really and abridged edition with some new stuff included. In there you can see the development of Vallee's and Hynek's ideas in terms of interdimensional travel. It's obvious that both men later approached most of the UFO business from that perspective. They were both hard core scientists, and needed a rational framework to work within. I'm not current on Vallee's work. I should change that. I don't see much difference between the label Consciousness and Interdimensional, but that's getting pretty close to my personal philosophy which I do not discuss at places like this, for very good reasons of my own.

I hope that answers your questions, because I have no interest in arguing about Keel or Vallee.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I knew this would happen.

Much of what Keel claimed in things like Mothman relies solely on his own statements. That's true of his earlier book, don't recall the title and I'm not going to look. Jadoo or something, I think. A lot of it sounds like tall tales and as I recall it was considered to be just that. Loren Coleman said in a Paracast interview that the original reports from Point Pleasant involved what sounded like a very large owl. It's not hard to imagine something like that getting out of hand quickly. I've always thought Keel's Mothman chronicle was a lot like Whitley Strieber's work. Probably based on something real, but come on. As much fun as the creepy Indrid Cold character is, I have a hard time buying all of the things he supposedly did. That's not to say I don't enjoy a lot of Keel's work. I just don't see him as the visionary genius he is often said to have been.

If you can find a copy of the first edition of Vallee's Forbidden Science, it is well worth reading. The second edition is, too, but it's really and abridged edition with some new stuff included. In there you can see the development of Vallee's and Hynek's ideas in terms of interdimensional travel. It's obvious that both men later approached most of the UFO business from that perspective. They were both hard core scientists, and needed a rational framework to work within. I'm not current on Vallee's work. I should change that. I don't see much difference between the label Consciousness and Interdimensional, but that's getting pretty close to my personal philosophy which I do not discuss at places like this, for very good reasons of my own.

I hope that answers your questions, because I have no interest in arguing about Keel or Vallee.

One of the real problems with choosing or sorting sides with respect for the many UFO "historic summing" schools of thought is that because we are dealing in sheer speculation in all, and in every case, we tend to rely on the most comfortable surface on which to lean or rely. The walls that provide the surface area on which we do are made up of the bricks of individual programming that we all unavoidably receive while growing up. For me, I know this as the instinctual wall of survival. For instance, Keel is often cited as claiming to be a demonologist rather than a ufologist. What does that do for the atheist? Can you say, "yuck!"? Whereas the nuts n bolts Donald Keyhoe camp tend to find favor with the cut n dry "if it works that way for us, it most likely works that way for them" schools of science relevant prophetic delivery. The bottom line with respect for probability is that there is a small but nonetheless real grain of truth to be found in both. This being with an unquestionable amount of fairytale mixed in and frosted over the top of either. We have imagery, lots, and lots of imagery. But what we have in the Keel camp is IMO far closer to the truth than are the era derived projections based on the extreme unlikelihood (and even time tested as being proved inaccurate) that the universe revolves around us and our relevance as sentient beings.

There is a medium that is universal through which all cognition decodes reality centric to itself. That is called consciousness and it spans all distance, time, and space irrelevant dimensions. What Keel was stating is that ultimately with respect for the UFO perceptions that had become synonymous with his time, we, in conjunction with this medium, are witness to self relevant illusions. Precisely what you stated in the emboldened section of your first post to which I responded. As humankind's iconic cognitive awareness plenum progressively continues to induct the informational threads that weave the fabric of our reality, the human perception of environment is altered whereat cognition meets consciousness and all time honored relevance is born. This is where the speculative notions of what is an evolution of process wherein post biological sentience theories are seen as a natural extension of physical being rather than a religious matter to be reconciled by the ego. All one has to do is consider the present state of the environmental orientation that mankind exists within, while mentally holding firmly onto the orientations and physiology of a fish, to know beyond question just how far East really is from West. What were we? What are we? What will we be? As you have stated, we are NOT dealing with anything relevant to ourselves with respect for yesterday, or today.

 

[junius]

I thought the account regarding the incident at the missile silo was interesting, then things seemed to go a bit strange for me to be honest and not in an interesting or though provoking way...

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

These incidents are real and these folks have encountered a minpulative action of human or none human force which disregards the damage it cause to the individuals well being. Listening to a old interview of Mr Nick Redfern case regarding s "Mr Harold South" eyewitness which maybe plausible not his real name and other eyewitness to this case needs further investigation. Another fresh recount by Mr Nick RedFern would be great and was it the only location for the incident ? We're there more crash/break up of derbies within the UK ?

 

[boomerang]

We almost endlessly discuss the need for ferreting out patterns in the UFO paradigm that might in some way be meaningful. Here is one is staring us right in the face: The phenomenon, or some incredibly efficient and powerful agency acting on its behalf, discredits itself. This often takes the form of a two step process. The UFO presents itself in such a way as to make incredibly powerful experiential impressions on members of our society considered to be stable and credible. Many of them are prominent members of the community. Then, just as mysteriously, "our" credible witnesses proceed, for reasons difficult to explain, later proceed to publicly behave in ways that damage their standing as rational and objective observers.

The best evidence we have is not in the form of radar data or indentations on the ground. Although these are vital puzzle pieces. Our best evidence lies within the observers themselves. The higher the strangeness of their encounter, the more radical and profound changes in their own psyches seem to be. I can almost see an analytical category here, as per Hynek, of not only high strangeness of the encounter itself, but degrees of apparent strangeness in the behaviors of witnesses themselves over their entire lives following close encounters with whatever the UFO seems to be.

IMO, a handful of such personal transformations can easily be dismissed as artifact. But the historical pattern is very much larger and deserves a closer look.

And I will throw in one of my pet peeves for good measure: Who the hell made regression hypnosis some kind of gold standard for revealing personal truth? Bull hockey!

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Agree the regression hypnosis seems to only increased muddying the field!