James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[James Carrion]

Hi James,

I think I've read all that has been published about MUFON's multi-year scanning project ("the Pandora Project") in the MUFON journal and elsewhere. I collated relevant articles a year or so ago and uploaded them to the link below.
http://isaackoi.minus.com/mcZIh4J4fzFVG

Even within MUFON, details of what was scanned are rather sparse. Over the last couple of years, I've been told pretty wildly differing and contradictory things even by senior officials within MUFON.

I discussed the Pandora Project with Dave MacDonald, Jacques Vallee and others a few weeks ago when I went to Paris to participate in the meeting organised by the French space agency, CNES.

Dave MacDonald said he was sure that everything scanned for the Pandora Project was made available on the Blackvault website. That material is at the link below:
Category:MUFON Case Files - The Black Vault Encyclopedia Project

From what I had previously read and heard (mainly in articles written by you and podcast interviews you had given), my impression was that considerably more had been scanned than is available at the above link - but Dave MacDonald was pretty insistent that the files on the Blackvault site included everything that had been scanned by MUFON as part of the Pandora Project.

The Pandora Project scanned all of MUFON paper case files. What you see on the Black Vault is a select few files from the over 30,000 cases files that were scanned. MUFON has never posted these online probably because someone would have to first go through and remove witness privacy information first.

 

[IsaacKoi]

The Pandora Project scanned all of MUFON paper case files. What you see on the Black Vault is a select few files from the over 30,000 cases files that were scanned. MUFON has never posted these online probably because someone would have to first go through and remove witness privacy information first.

Thanks James. That's what I had understood from your prior comments about the Pandora Project. Dave MacDonald was pretty insistent during our discussions in Paris that my understanding was wrong.

It probably goes without saying that I find it a bit, um, disappointing that senior people within MUFON don't seem to know what was scanned.

(Almost every MUFON official I've asked about the Pandora Project has given a different answer about it. My continued interest in that project has become a source of increasing amusement to others in Europe that have followed my attempts during the last couple of years to obtain accurate information about exactly what has been scanned. A number of jokes were made by other researchers regarding these attempts at the recent CNES meeting in Paris).

 

[fastwalker]

A story or two or three…

In my fifty years plus on the planet I have not seen a UFO or paranormal event that I can honestly attribute to the paranormal or UFO field and yet I want to believe. Like many of you I started down this path in my high school library searching out books for the paranormal, magic, Bermuda Triangle and much more. What started me down this path? Not sure.

When I was around 11 years old I was on a camping trip with the Boy Scouts and on our first night in the wilderness we noticed a large flat boulder with a high degree of some element that made it glow at night our leader thought it would be cool if we all lay on our backs on that boulder and he would point out various constellations to us. As we lay there we saw a light streak across the sky, our leader said it was a satellite as it moved in a straight line at a steady speed without flashing lights like an aircraft. Later on we all saw a craft that had all the earmarks of a craft right out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, (which would not be made for another number years) our gracious leader said that it was an advertising helicopter as we were not that far from town and it had been flying on previous nights. No mention of UFO’s or other possibilities. When asked why could not read the advertising he said we were looking at the wrong angle. Since my memory is not that great I have always assumed that indeed that was what those objects were but from that point on I was consumed by science fiction.

When I was a teenager I was awaken by something fearful and dreadful coming out of a swirling blackness from the corner of my room above my door. I screamed with all my might, not a gasp emitted from my throat. I called on God and Christ and screamed again and again for my parents, I could not scream, I could not move. Whatever it was, it was not friendly in my mind’s eye. Suddenly I screamed and my parents came charging into my room, it was gone. Alien? Shadow person? Demon? My mom would say later that it was a bad dream and I had awakened between breaths and that was that. Well I have never encountered either experience again and I cannot honestly attribute them to anything other than what was told to me by my troop leader and my parents.

Years later as I delved into books about these subjects I wondered if perhaps I had seen something else indeed but in reality I had no viable proof. I only had what was presented to me as the 'truth.'

One evening as a young adult I sat down and read Frank Herbert’s masterpiece ‘DUNE’ there was one line that struck me continuously throughout the book; “Wheels within wheels.” Plans within plans, as I listened to this interview I kept hearing that in my head again and again. We don’t get what we want, that is not how the world works. While much accolades have been heaped upon this work, deservedly so, I find much here to challenge my previous thoughts about many subjects in this field. I cannot help but wonder about the plans within plans and whether the author like myself and many others have been led down roads carefully constructed for us to follow. Peace and thanks for this work.

 

[Tanith14]

Would you consider some kind of discussion/debate on the Skinwalker Ranch with James and Ryan Skinner?

 

[mike_thoth]

I am a long time student of the UaP, but I emphasise student. I have no conclusions, I really have no hypothesis to explain this, it's a mystery. I enjoyed Carrions episode & I agree with some of it as it's clear that intelligence agencies would plant stories (the soviets as well as NATO) to confuse their enemy? To my mind there is a real phenomena here, not just hoaxes or disinformation. A phenomena that has influenced our very culture seemingly form remote antiquity. I admit I have yet to read his book (to be objective I will do so) as his work is vital.

I listen to the Paracast each week but have not really participated in the forums because of work & family constraints, so this may have been discussed in the forums in recent years.

My main question; why is it that the so called Pentacle memo gets so little mention anywhere in this field of study? I have not read Carrions book, but this is not a question for him. The First time I read this document around 10 years back when I was 23, a cold chill took me. The study proposed was utterly brilliant, far reaching & exactly what any unit would need to get better intelligence & data.

The proposition also suggested performing fake events to learn how civilians reacted but also to calibrate real witnesses on the ground. In other words, fake sightings to learn from the observational limitations of normal people in order to quickly deploy calibrated military witnesses into zone experiencing a flap.

This for me was far reaching but it comes together nicely in Jacques Valle's fiction novel, Fastwalkers.

Thoughts.
Mike

 

[DissectionStalker]

My main question; why is it that the so called Pentacle memo gets so little mention anywhere in this field of study? I have not read Carrions book, but this is not a question for him. The First time I read this document around 10 years back when I was 23, a cold chill took me. The study proposed was utterly brilliant, far reaching & exactly what any unit would need to get better intelligence & data.

The proposition also suggested performing fake events to learn how civilians reacted but also to calibrate real witnesses on the ground. In other words, fake sightings to learn from the observational limitations of normal people in order to quickly deploy calibrated military witnesses into zone experiencing a flap.

This for me was far reaching but it comes together nicely in Jacques Valle's fiction novel, Fastwalkers.

Thank you VERY MUCH for posting this. EXCELLENT points!

I'm shocked a quick search on Pentacle (and "Stork") GOT NOTHING on this forum!!! What THE HELL is going on??? It just shows to me an unbelievable amount of BLIND FAITH lives in the world of ET-UFO's. This is truly a POWERFUL RELIGIOUS FORCE that has "taken over" many aspects of modern society -now worldwide too! It's worth TRILLIONS of dollars over the decades, when you consider all aspects of the Entertainment Industries AND the Military Industrial Complex.

Promoting ET-UFO's is worth Trillions of dollars... and WE ARE TO BELIEVE this is NOT... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...we have this phenomena!

Seriously???

To discuss this, PLEASE post here:

Jacques Vallee C2C July 2014 Interview | The Paracast Community Forums


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[DissectionStalker]

Found on the Internet:

A missing Pentacle

On Sunday, June 18, 1967, Vallee tried to restore some order in the files and “found a letter which is especially remarkable because of the new light it throws on the key period of the Robertson Panel and of Report #14”. This was the report that was also at the core of Leon Davidson’s enquiries and which made him conclude that the US government were using UFOs as part of a psychological warfare exercise.
Jacques Vallee

The report Vallee found was stamped, in red ink: “SECRET – Security Information” and dated January 9, 1953. Vallee has nicknamed the man who signed it “Pentacle”, arguing it was not up to him to reveal his name. Since, others have named Pentacle. What was never withheld was that the memo was addressed to Miles E. Coll at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, for transmittal to Captain Ruppelt, the government’s lead investigator – as far as the public was concerned – on UFOs.

Vallee read how the opening paragraph established that prior to the top-level 1953 Robertson Panel, somebody had analysed thousands of UFO cases on behalf of the US government. The document noted that the majority of these case reports were found lacking in several aspects, and that the panel should thus ideally be postponed. Failing such postponement, a list had to be created about what the five specialists that would serve on the panel could and should not discuss. To quote Vallee: “the representatives of this top-level research group were against convening the Robertson Panel!” But in the end, they could not stop the formation of the panel, which was chaired by HP Robertson, physicist from California Institute of Technology and would go down into history as “the Robertson Panel”. The other four members were Luis Alvarez, Nobel prize in physics; Lloyd Berkner, space scientist; Sam Goudsmit, nuclear physicist at Brookhaven National Laboratory and Thornton Page, astronomer.

When Vallee read the memorandum, he noticed that there were references to a Project Stork, which Vallee had not come across before. The project seemed to be a key determinant in what the panel could discuss – and what not, i.e. what would be kept away from the panel. By preselecting the evidence, the conclusion the scientists would reach could thus be known in advance. It is a well-established practice that is employed in all government enquiries, but which continues to bedazzle the public, who realise the commission’s conclusions are never in line with the truth. This is largely not the fact of the commission, but of the evidence the commission is presented with. If you do not get to see a smoking gun, you can you comment on it?

Of more interest was that the project Stork team had identified pockets of high UFO activity and recommended that these should be specifically studied. But they also added that many different types of aerial activity should be secretly and purposefully scheduled within the area. To quote Vallee: “what these people were recommending was nothing less than a carefully calibrated and monitored simulation of an entire UFO wave.”

Go to link to read the rest of this:

A missing Pentacle

To discuss this PLEASE post here:

Jacques Vallee C2C July 2014 Interview | The Paracast Community Forums


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[James Carrion]

Would you consider some kind of discussion/debate on the Skinwalker Ranch with James and Ryan Skinner?

Not really. I have given up chasing/discussing the cases that have too many gatekeepers for my liking. For the ranch, there is Bigelow, for the California Drones, Linda Moulton Howe, etc.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Oh, and I moved the posts about Stanton Friedman to a new thread, which you can find here:

Stanton T. Friedman — August 3, 2014 | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[mike_thoth]

Just my opinion but editors have been in collusion for years with intelligence. Here in the UK (I Welsh) we still have the D-Notice. The church committee I thought highlighted media collusion & the potential resources of these people was implied during the Iran- Contra investigations.

Regarding Mr Friedman, I do feel he is frustrated by the alternative explanations of Roswell. To be fair he was the first civilian investigator, he talked to many first hand witnesses. Now I have no slant on this issue, but post 1950-60's (I'm not 100% sure of my dates on this) if a major deception was in the mix then why wait 20-30 years to leave it cold? I would however be very disappointed if Mr Friedman if he failed to read your book. He has called attention to the likes of Shostak, not reading or acknowledging the evidence, or the books Stan sent to him. For this reason I doubt very much that he will ignore this book, he will likely offer a critique. But critiques are science, always should be.

To my mind I'm open to all hypotheses, the actual birth of Roswell in more recent times started by accident.

Finally, what state is "Ufology" in currently? I am perhaps over critical here, but normal everyday Ufology has actually proved nothing for scientists to review. (Orthodox science will need to answer for their position of UaP, their lack of contribution here officially has resulted in the public creating myths to fill the knowledge gaps of normal everyday people exposed to the phenomena).

The answers to this baffling subject will only come with global scientific agreement. We can't solve it without the methods, investment & attention of the scientific method.

Just my opinion.

Michael

 

[Bananas]

How many grants do you think a scientist would get in this field from... anywhere? There might be privately funded research being done, somewhere, but anything they uncover wouldn't be published anywhere anyways unless there was money in it, so I don't really see any private corporations or institutes investing the kind of money actual properly done research would take.

There are all these groups that have come to together over the years but not one of them has turned up anything of value. Just anecdotal evidence at best, and publishing anecdotes will end your career *very* quickly.

 

[manxman]

You seem to have alot to say that amounts to nothing, no matter how many time's you repeat it.

How about you give us an insight of your deep knowledge of the UFO/UAP/ETH subject's, instead.

 

[DissectionStalker]

To my mind I'm open to all hypotheses, the actual birth of Roswell in more recent times started by accident.

I'm not sure it was started by accident. It seems Richard Doty was assigned as an Air Force OSI agent to run a propaganda disinformation campaign regarding Roswell with ET UFO crash and surviving ET that could be "interviewed" starting in the late '70's and running in the '80's. He said 'WE' were read-in to the program, so if we are to believe Doty this was absolutely no accident. Bill Moore admits his publisher also embelished his Roswell book with a lot of hype to get more media attention and make more money. Truth and accuracy were not the primary concern, and Moore had no editorial control over the book.

Also, I find it fascinating Doty and Bill Moore called their "group" relating to Roswell -The Aviary- with individuals being named by various birds that had some role in the disinformation campaign. What's so interesting about this "bird naming" is that traces back to the 1950's and Pentacle -referencing " Stork ", so did this represent at least some conceptual relationship to these types of propaganda programs continuing the bird naming themes?

 

[Constance]

The Aviary seems to have been a deep insider disinformation-generating creature of the CIA and the Battelle Institute. Stanton Friedman has commented somewhere about how much credibility to give to the theory you've propagated above. Basically none, in his view.

 

[Bananas]

You seem to have alot to say that amounts to nothing, no matter how many time's you repeat it.

How about you give us an insight of your deep knowledge of the UFO/UAP/ETH subject's, instead.

What are you even referring to here? You might want to be a bit more specific, if you're even responding to my post. If not, nevermind.

 

[DissectionStalker]

The Aviary seems to have been a deep insider disinformation-generating creature of the CIA and the Battelle Institute.

It was also called "The Avairy" too? What a coincidence?

Air Force OSI is "the spook" version of CIA in some limited respects, so it's an unusual coincidence that this Avairy concept is adopted again without "rumor" or "gossip" connection to some other "bird naming" conventions. My guess is that additional "bird naming" usage was done for other disinformation and propaganda campaigns too.

I don't consider Friedman to be "agenda free" or "open minded". He had/has no forensic qualifications to analyze the validity of the MJ-12 papers, yet he continues to say it is basically true. He should admit MJ-12 is proven disinformation and move-on, but he has "an agenda" that ET-UFO's are flying around our airspace all the time. It's nuts-n-bolts UFO's and ET's under control, and he's roped/hung himself to Roswell which is a known propaganda disinformation campaign started by Air Force OSI. It's not just Doty that knows about that.

 

[Fedora Chronicles]

Well best I address your assumptions before answering your question. First the alleged crash. Mac Brazel saw debris, not a crash, Jesse Marcel saw debris, not a crash. So the first thing that would have to be addressed is did something actually "crash". Enumerate your first hand witnesses to the actual crash and let's examine their testimony. Please do not include the 2nd hand witnesses who did not see the crash as that would be hearsay. Just because something was recovered in the dessert does not mean it crashed.

You offer only two possibilities for what Roswell could have been, a military aircraft test or an alien spacecraft, and that is based on your earlier assumption that something actually crashed. You need to prove a crash before you can label what crashed.

It appears your knowledge of these events comes from reading the investigations of others like Friedman, Randall, etc. Then you state without ever having read my book or the evidence that I present that if I say "nothing happened" then somehow my Rosetta Deception research is flawed. Jeez that is like saying to a Nuclear Physicist that if you don't believe in Global Warming then your string theory research must be a sham.

Between the flying wing theory and the crashed alien spacecraft theory, there is room for many other possibilities. My theory based on my research is the human deception theory. I show precedence for Roswell in the Rosetta Deception but Roswell itself is not addressed in that book at all - that will come later in Volume 2, tentatively titled "The Roswell Deception".

Yea – OK – You got me there. Now it's clearer what you're tying to say. There was debris that was scattered in a region of the desert in Roswell that was gathered up by local gawkers then the military came buy who picked the desert clean of any evidence then went around and confiscated the bits and pieces that that the civilians and other military members took as souvenirs. So, by following your logic and the notion that nothing actually crashed then that must mean that someone put the debris out in the desert hoping someone will find it and start this whole campaign of disinformation.

My theory is built upon the assumption is that if something actually crashed at all then it must have been either one or two things that would cause the military to behave the way it did – secret technology the US Government didn’t want us to know about or an actual alien spacecraft. 45-50 or so minutes into the podcast and the topic of Roswell comes up, even Gene reiterates the speculation – if something did occur outside of Roswell and there was caused the military in the region to get so involved… then what was it? Alien Spacecraft or our own aircraft or secret weapons.

With everything I’ve read, including rereading (or listening again via audio book) “Witness To Roswell” – the debris field was already big news around town a couple of days before the government got involved. The news release about the “flying saucer” could have been a plan created in a moment of panic since we didn’t want The Russians to know what we brought back from Europe that were in Nazi secret labs or air fields.

But you’re theory is that the whole thing was staged, nothing crashed but material was scattered about as a part of a program of disinformation. I can actually imagine these guys out in the desert giggling to each other thinking they were playing the biggest prank in the history of the world not realize that it was all going to backfire and get horrible out of control. Call it a “False Flag Encounter of the Make Believe Kind.” I totally admit that’s plausible.

I totally admit that my theory is just a theory and I’m game for any other theory that someone else submits. I can entertain my theory while at the same listen to someone else’s and not take offense. What bothers me about a lot of people are there insistence that their theory is right, period. Granted, you have seen “behind the curtain” documents and I haven’t. You’re theories are fighting upstream that’s been moving for 70 years… or 40 years… or however long the legend of Roswell has been flowing. I don’t envy your position.

 

[mike_thoth]

When I say accident, I'm paraphrasing Friedman. Friedman was at a radio station being interviewed about a lecture he was to deliver at a college that evening. The guy scheduled to interview him suggested he contact Major Marcel, they were both HAM radio friends & he told Friedman that this Marcel had handled wreckage from a crashed saucer.

That was Stanton's first intro to the case I think (I'm writing from memory). From this story Friedman engaged in the investigation, which must have been a tough job indeed without official access to records, no internet search engine. It was this work that opened up the case, he was the first civilian investigator.

Regardless of what it was, any test program on classified test program for secret military tech would not be left in the desert, they would have been chase planes, men on the ground monitoring the whole thing. There were Soviet spies in the US & they wouldn't risk letting it fall into Soviet hands. I have not read Carrions book yet so I accept that he may have data I'm not privy to currently.

My concern of Carrions approach is that it seems that all first hand witness testimony seems to be ignored at least based on his interview. I'm agnostic towards any hypothesis about Roswell, but it also seems to me that the Air Force has now provided 5 explanations of the incident each one changing based on what research has revealed. From mogul balloon to crash test dummies.

Anyhow any explanation for any case must take account for as much of the evidence as possible, however Roswell is difficult because of how long ago it happened.

We should never rush to judgement when so much data is missing.
Mike

 

[DissectionStalker]

Top Secret Majic ... [& Roswell PSYOPS]
"Friedman attempts to authenticate purported MJ-12 documents that mysteriously appeared in 1984 and 1994." "However on page 20 Friedman admits that Jaime Shandera was to be the director of a movie about UFO's proposed circa 1980. A movie in which Friedman was to act as a technical consultant."

Also, the Forward to this book is none other than: Whitley Strieber (The man that popularized the ET anal probe technique.)
--------------------------------------------
Why Roswell is Ludicrous to be ET-UFO...

1) ET's do NOT travel light years only to crash near Military Test Ranges and Nuclear Weapons Flight Command. STINKS. Yes, it's true, ONLY HUMANS crash their UFO's. SMELLS RIGHT.

2) It seems Friedman's Roswell FITS PERFECTLY within the Air Force OSI Campaign of Disinformation. A FACT. AND, the friggin stories match-up too! See: Doty/Moore/Collins. Why continue on with disinformation to fit belief systems designed by Air Force OSI ???

You've been PYSOPS.

3) The debris and symbol "evidence" found can ALL have EASY Human made explanations, period. The flimsy, thin, "crap" that was found hardly matches-up with even airplane grade "quality materials" made in that "antiquated" time frame to survive Earth's atmosphere (for one flight) much less a friggin Space Faring ET-UFO which DO NOT CRASH anyway!

4) Roswell IS Mythology with "theme park" money making. A for-profit faith of the ET-UFO belief systems. It is a money making machine, and Stanton Friedman is invested big-time to make big-money on it. He is an original investor that has risen profitably with the tide of a Propaganda Story, and Air Force OSI PSYOPS is the foundation of it all.

Richard Doty was assigned as an Air Force OSI agent to run a propaganda disinformation campaign regarding Roswell with ET UFO crash and surviving ET that could be "interviewed" starting in the late '70's and running in the '80's. He said 'WE' were read-in to the program, so if we are to believe Doty this was absolutely no accident. This is confirmed by other people too!

 

[Fedora Chronicles]

1) ET's do NOT travel light years only to crash near Military Test Ranges and Nuclear Weapons Flight Command. STINKS. Yes, it's true, ONLY HUMANS crash their UFO's. SMELLS RIGHT.

Yea, I said this on the Stan Friedman thread, too: So you mean to tell me that these organic, thinking creatures are infallible? This highlights one of my problems with some aspects of UFOlogy and interests in the paranormal/unexplained phenomenon – many of us have replaced angels and other “perfect” spiritual mythical beings with aliens. They are mere walking and thinking meat-sticks like us here at home, if they’re made out of flesh and bone and grey matter (oooh… bad pun) that means they’re just as prone to the problems we face.

I don't think they're perfect creatures and prone to perfect behavior. If there are aliens out there, we might terrify them the same way wild animals from the wilderness might scare city dwellers... what happens when the wolves and coyotes decide to scavenge for food in the suburbs? What if we're the cosmic equivalents to stelular wolves and they don't want us poking around their stelular cul-de-sac's beyond Uranus? If there's a reason to be worried about us after we joined "The Global Atomic Club" wouldn't it serve their interest to investigate us?

I also agree with you that it gets tiresome that EVERYTHING has to be UFO's - or every UFO must be of alien origin. Which is more probable - Alien Spacecraft or experimental cutting edge technology created here on earth that "they" don't want us to know about?

Could there be aliens visiting earth? Sure. Could strange phenomenon be the surveyors of a lost civilization that evolved and left earth 100,000's of years before our own recorded history? Would all of this be a vivid dream of a man who has been in a coma since getting hit by a car in 1980 while crossing the street on the way home from the local pool and you're all part of my drug-induced illusion?

The notion that anyone has the definitive "facts" of what happened in Roswell or any other indecent is ludicrous. The notion that anyone has "the final" answer and you MUST believe in that "final" answer is a bit freaky. It's OK to have a theory but to insist that you MUST believe it seems unhinged.

Either you've read only everything that YOU wanted to read, or you've read everything THEY wanted you to read. We chose to believe or deny what others have said at our own peril. If you chose to ignore the work of others on this subject, that's your issue, not mine or the rest of the audience. When I say "you" it's in the generic non-specific you... it's part of the human condition.

2) It seems Friedman's Roswell FITS PERFECTLY within the Air Force OSI Campaign of Disinformation. A FACT. AND, the friggin stories match-up too! See: Doty/Moore/Collins. Why continue on with disinformation to fit belief systems designed by Air Force OSI ???

For me... why allow the controversy over what "really" happened perpetuate. I think James is right... if we found out our government has been lying to us about Roswell there will be a groundswell of distrust and maybe even anarchy. OK, so Uncle Sam... what else are you lying about?